I can not lie!

[Kevin D Pem]

I have a confession to make!
I explain my indiscretion and why I fell from my horse! How I was tempted I don't know, exactly, but I found a way to justify my actions long before I hit the road.

Surplus is my justification! If it ain't good for the environment, but I can keep it from being disposed of improperly, I might be able to prolong the inevitable! This is the case here, now I have to admit to something that the pollution outweighs the advantages, so here I go!!!

I went to Phoenix and bought a 48volt lithium rack mount 50 ah battery. Yup you heard that right. I am red faced embarrassed, to say that, however, Surplus means I am supporting a company that is trying to mitigate the damage made by a very large contributor to polluting our world!!!
I could have purchased new lead carbon, but that directly contributes, so what I did was similar to finding a way to use old prius cells. However Surplus in this case is with new Surplus cells.

Anyhow the battery has a BMS that won't need jump start, won't allow charging below 32f, and all the active components that protect the cells.

The system will be installed NOT IN THE RV, due to the fire hazard! I had to sign a disclosure to access the site stating my understanding that lithium batteries are a fire hazard that relieved there responsibility if they sold to me (I'm not making this shite up!!!

I will continue to speak poorly of lithium technology, and continue looking for a better solution!!!

 

[GTS225]

Kevin......you need to look at it a bit differently. If NO ONE buys ANY lithium-based batteries, then there won't be any made, and lithium falls by the wayside.
So....you bought one, (even if surplus), from a secondary market. That means you helped the "demand" numbers increase, if only by 1. Eventually, the battery you bought is going to have to go back into the scrap side of the venture, and you helped that happen.
I suggest, don't buy lithium batteries at all.

Just my 2-pence.....Roger

 

[GTS225]

And, to support Kevin's, (and my) position concerning lithium batteries, here's a Youtube video. Jump to about the 4 minute mark.


Just sayin'.....Roger

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Well Roger, you and I know you're right! I justified this the way I justified my solar panels.

They are already out there, and giving them a home is a better option than the land fill option. This battery would have been hard to find a home for, but I know you're right!

 

[Rich W.]

Ya’ll might be overthinking this a bit. I mainly use re-purposed Nissan Leaf cells in several applications (including RVs - safe if done right) so I suppose that is recycling, preventing some nearly immeasurable amount of environmental damage, but the reason is economics and performance. I’m not above buying new, but I don’t need to and the cost is less than 25% of new for the same performance and I have much more system design flexibility. But the impact of buying a used battery is probably akin to the metaphorical butterfly in the rain forest flapping his wings. So Kevin I would consider yourself absolved.

 

[offroader09]

And, to support Kevin's, (and my) position concerning lithium batteries, here's a Youtube video. Jump to about the 4 minute mark.


Just sayin'.....Roger

In my opinion, if the EV industry was not being supported by governments it would have been banned already. Some states do not allow propane tanks in tunnels so how are these things on the road.

 

[Rich W.]

“…accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. The site found that hybrid vehicles had the most fires per 100,000 sales at 3474.5. There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles.”
source: https://www.autoweek.com/news/a38225037/how-much-you-should-worry-about-ev-fires/

I had a lot of training on EV hazards and fires as they began to appear in regular use about 15 or so years go (maybe longer…?) and the biggest hazard then was potential electric shock to personnel responding to collisions not involving fire. But by far gas engine vehicles pose a greater risk of fire. The higher level of hybrid car fires surprised me as I’ve never seen that specific data before.

I’m not a proponent of EV’s at all, I think the notion that they will somehow change the weather is idiotic, and I believe public policy towards producing and purchasing EVs is entirely misguided. But they don’t pose an appreciable fire danger when compared to conventional vehicles.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

You can fudge any stat you want! The first big question is. How long have they been making cars in the three form factors.

To be honest! And when agendas are present, people tend to be liars! The only way the stats can be "honest" is to consider only year models for cars only as far back as pluggable cars have been selling! Then you would have a more representative result.

For an example a Toyota camery hybrid has an estimated 80k lifetime for the battery pack.

ICE Engine fires are more prevalent on engines without EFI fitted.

And pluggable electric is just barely getting old enough that people may start pushing the batteries past useful life limits.

Further, if we consider cars on the road the numbers are against ICE and hybrids. Coupled with vehicles with lots of miles, Coupled with maintenance records In a lousy economy will put older cars at higher risk!

I don't like people who have an agenda!!! Honest reporting is not a thing anymore, If it ever was! For that reason I consider motive, and obviously the current regime is pushing there investment in lithium!!!

 

[Rich W.]

I’ve been an Auto Week reader since the late ‘60’s and have never felt they have an agenda other than reporting on things automotive. I could address some of your points but I’m not sure I’d be staying on topic.

 

[GTS225]

Whilst I applaud Rich's efforts at recycling, I still suggest that even recycling creates a demand that affects the "buy new" market. Sure it's a secondary effect, but if there's no secondary market, then there's little value for the dead battery(s) from an electric or hybrid. This would have at least some effect on the new replacement market, making that new battery that much more expensive, as there's a fee for disposing of the old batt.
What perturbs me more than anything though, is the lie that electrics are/will be the savior of the planet, and that they're "zero emissions" transportation. Far too many folks are buying off on that massive untruth. All that's happening is that the emissions are being transferred from the individual auto to the power generating station.

Roger..... just another grumpy, old, opinionated S.O.B.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

So prius hit the market in 97,in Japan! Tesla was formed in 03, I think first car in 13! First gas car for the mass market? Well the "T"! If going through old lithium banks could safely match battery cell capacity,,then maintenance could offer safe used lithium batteries! But it can't! No one can predict when cycle life will end on a battery cell, and time is not on your side!

I have considered how one might change new cell demand, by recycling!!! The more people like Rich, scavenging through old discarded battery packs will only serve to have the practice outlawed, due to an increase in lithium fires!(see cycle life above).

Further more, recovery of compounds is being done, producing what they are calling black gold, I think? Sound familiar? However that is where the reporting stops!!! I have not heard about a new cell manufacturer seeking out this resource to use in their production process!!!

As long as it costs to dump, or dispose of the old packs, I fail to understand how Surplus markets will change lithium demand, only delay the guaranteed outcome!!! Used is another thing!!! Will people try to unload their toy before the batteries fail??? As people start learning the truth about this follie, it may be a race for those that had that in mind, to sneak under that line!!!

 

[sanda]

You can fudge any stat you want! The first big question is. How long have they been making cars in the three form factors.

To be honest! And when agendas are present, people tend to be liars! The only way the stats can be "honest" is to consider only year models for cars only as far back as pluggable cars have been selling! Then you would have a more representative result.

For an example a Toyota camery hybrid has an estimated 80k lifetime for the battery pack.

ICE Engine fires are more prevalent on engines without EFI fitted.

And pluggable electric is just barely getting old enough that people may start pushing the batteries past useful life limits.

Further, if we consider cars on the road the numbers are against ICE and hybrids. Coupled with vehicles with lots of miles, Coupled with maintenance records In a lousy economy will put older cars at higher risk!

I don't like people who have an agenda!!! Honest reporting is not a thing anymore, If it ever was! For that reason I consider motive, and obviously the current regime is pushing there investment in lithium!!!

I have a hard time believing anything that comes out of the current regime. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see.

 

[Rich W.]

I have considered how one might change new cell demand, by recycling!!! The more people like Rich, scavenging through old discarded battery packs will only serve to have the practice outlawed, due to an increase in lithium fires!

Not my practice at all and all my projects are top quality and perfectly safe due to testing, proper balancing, and monitoring, but I’m certain its not worth going in to detail and I really don’t want to reveal my sources and methods anyway. But thanks for your concern.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Wow! Turned into more work than planned! I thought I wound the inverter transformer so I could use the inverter on 12,24,or 48 volts, by changing the way I connected the coils.
Now that I'm in the middle of the project I remember I didn't have space for the 48volt coil set. I do have an old inverter that the transformer is wired the same, but I had to spend the morning tuning it to match the one in use on the inverter I will be using.

Lucky for me I only had to add a couple turns on the high side, and take a few from the low side. Other way around the transformer would have had to be replaced, or the BMS would have to be replaced to change the battery to 24 volts.

Not up and running yet, but closer!!!