DEF problem

[Rich W.]

waiting for a call back from spartan, I've put less than 40 miles on this rig

The good news is that it wont derate in 40 miles so if you are that close to the dealer, you can drive it there and let them deal with it.

 

[Neal]

I'm hoping to hear a good outcome for @team bradfield and great experiences ahead as I love my Newmar and hope they will as well.

As to the ammonia situation you think the tank needs to be vented or we should even store them with the cap off. It's as if they are not accounting for gassing.

 

[Rich W.]

My understanding is that the ammonia is in solution where high levels cause the corrosion. Heat releases the ammonia (needed to react with NOx) so I think the key is limiting heat exposure to your DEF tank (and stored DEF), and if it sits over a period of time exposed to higher temps, replace it based on the chart above.

I enclosed my DEF tank compartment, but I haven’t insulated it (maybe I should) so I can’t say if it has helped or not. It did give me more storage though. I have also dumped and replaced my DEF when it smelled strongly of ammonia (much more so than ‘fresh” DEF) but this was a precaution back when I still thought I had a “quality” sensor (my 2016 is on a 2015 chassis) and I don’t know if it was necessary or helpful.

I’m also anxiously awaiting the codes and outcome of @team bradfield ’s dilemma.

 

[team bradfield]

thanks to all for the input, under a winter storm warning right now, coming down pretty good, probably on hold until Saturday, calling for 8-10 inches, tomorrow will be snow blowing day

 

[mansracing]

So in team bradfield’s situation would the DSS device work if he were to go into derate mode?My 2018 Essex is now showing a 4331-16 HIGH code.Spartan is saying it’s a problem with the Dossing unit.Incorrect quantity. Is this something that could put me in derate?

 

[mansracing]

Rich W you suggested buying a code reader do you have any suggestions on which one?Can they also reset codes?Just trying to learn more about the Def system.

 

[Rich W.]

So in team bradfield’s situation would the DSS device work if he were to go into derate mode?My 2018 Essex is now showing a 4331-16 HIGH code.Spartan is saying it’s a problem with the Dossing unit.Incorrect quantity. Is this something that could put me in derate?

Yes the DSS would send a “all sensors normal” message to the ECM, but it wouldn’t be a good idea in this case because his DEF head is probably working, indicating he has an DEF actual problem. The DSS is better suited to dealing with false readings, such as low DEF when you know the tank is full. Bypassing the DEF header when there is an actual problem doesn’t fix anything and might make things worse.

In your case, Spartan (or cummins) is the best one to answer the derate question. SPN 4331 is “Aftertreatment 1 Diesel Exhaust Fluid Actual Dosing Quantity“ and FMI 16 is reading “high“, so it shouldn’t lead to derate because the only issue is that you’ll consume more DEF than necessary, but you’ll want to read all codes to make sure. If you are in initial derate you’ll see SPN 1569.

Also if your check engine light is on and has a wrench in it, you are headed for, or in the early stages of derate. If it starts flashing you’re in a more severe level of derate. And the DSS wouldn’t help you here because the error message isn’t originating in the DEF head.

Since your coach is a 2018, this is the last year of your emissions warranty, so I’d check your delivery date and if you are still under five years, get it in and get it fixed.

 

[Rich W.]

Rich W you suggested buying a code reader do you have any suggestions on which one?Can they also reset codes?Just trying to learn more about the Def system.

There are a lot of cheap J1939 code readers that work, and many will clear codes after the problem has been corrected, but after trying several, including OTR which is great but requires an annual subscription, I’ve landed on this one as ideal for the coach owner:

Used Diesel Laptops Handheld Heavy-Duty Scan Tool with Regen

Please Note: This kit is used and is in good condition. The Diesel Handheld scanner is very simple to use. This handheld is specifically designed for the heavy-duty market. It allows reading and clearing of DTC's, Live data reading, and even DPF regens on most makes and models. This tool comes...

www.diesellaptops.com

This is a great deal - half price, and they don’t always have used units available. I bought mine used and couldn't tell it from new. Also their customer service/tech support is outstanding. But you can also retrieve codes from your dash, and there are numerous cheaper J1939 code readers on Amazon.

 

[mansracing]

Is the only time you would use the DSS device if there is a problem with the def head?Deff sensor or fluid level?
Thanks for all your help and info.
Randy

 

[Rich W.]

Is the only time you would use the DSS device if there is a problem with the def head?Deff sensor or fluid level?
Thanks for all your help and info.
Randy

Yes. In the event of a DEF head failure, when all else is working fine, the DSS sends a simulated “all is well” message for the three sensors (level, qual, temp) to the ECM. It will only work on a 2016 or later chassis.

The most common failures occur with three codes indicating problems with all three parameters at once - an obvious DEF head failure. So the DSS simulates a healthy DEF head and sends the correct signals preventing a derate, and if all ready in derate, the ECM senses the problem has been solved so after about 5 or 6 ignition cycles usually clears derate and codes.

This allows the owner to still operate the vehicle until such time as a new header is available and an apointment can be scheduled to have the work done - both of which have often been a very long wait. The only caution is that you still have to put in DEF and you no longer have a working level gauge, so you have to be diligent about keeping the tank full, or you’ll have other problems, such as a 4331 18 (doser out of spec - low) which will cause a derate and the DSS cant do anything about it.

This is the DSS home page: DEF Sensor Simulator

 

[DennisT]

There are a lot of cheap J1939 code readers that work, and many will clear codes after the problem has been corrected, but after trying several, including OTR which is great but requires an annual subscription, I’ve landed on this one as ideal for the coach owner:

Used Diesel Laptops Handheld Heavy-Duty Scan Tool with Regen

Please Note: This kit is used and is in good condition. The Diesel Handheld scanner is very simple to use. This handheld is specifically designed for the heavy-duty market. It allows reading and clearing of DTC's, Live data reading, and even DPF regens on most makes and models. This tool comes...

www.diesellaptops.com

This is a great deal - half price, and they don’t always have used units available. I bought mine used and couldn't tell it from new. Also their customer service/tech support is outstanding. But you can also retrieve codes from your dash, and there are numerous cheaper J1939 code readers on Amazon.

Picked up this one recently when they had a 20% coupon sale. Figured I’d get one now before I need it on the road somewhere

Heavy Duty Truck Code Reader with DPF Regen

Amazing deals on this Truck Code Reader W/ Dpf Regen at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

Tested on a coach across from us to verify they didn’t have any codes causing concern before they headed to FL for their appt.

Does force regen and also checks the ABS which I guess some of them do not do.

Worked well so far.

 

[ARD]

I had to have my DEF head replaced within 6 months of having my 2022 LA. Sorry to hear you are not getting an immediate response from Spartan. I found them very responsive, overnighting the DEF head and scheduling a mobile tech through CoachNet to have it installed.

I did get a stop engine code though. What codes are you throwing? Make sure your DEF tank is full if you are in cold, snowy weather.

 

[team bradfield]

Gremlins I guess, tested the DEF and it tests good, started her up and the warning is gone, went through the diagnostics and it doesn't show any codes, as soon as the pile of snow in front of the bus is gone, gonna take it for a drive

 

[DennisT]

Well that is good. If you are like me, you probably hate it when things just “clear up” and you don’t know why

 

[team bradfield]

Well that is good. If you are like me, you probably hate it when things just “clear up” and you don’t know why

Yep, exactly, now I'm afraid it will pop up again traveling through the mountains this spring