Changing house battery to Lithium.

[RollingManCave]

Hi Folks,
Any Help is appreciated!!

2022 Coachman Freelander 22- E350 class C with 4000-watt genset, roof a/c,12 volt fridge/freezer.

Goal 1:
Change House Battery to Lithium 2OO amp hour.

Goal 2:
Add Soler panels and more batteries.

My research so far:

Some motorhomes have the built in capacity for Lithium and some don't.
You can fry your battery, Alternator or have problems with the Genset if you don't have the Lithium capacity built in.
I have little knowledge on DC to DC but his looks like for RV's without a House battery?

Victron Energy SmartShunt Looks like it might protect alternator?​

Lithium Battery Isolation Manager li-bim 225. Looks like it protects Alternator and genset overcharge and you use this to replace factory BIM???


Anybody know if I have this capacity built in and can just swap out old battery with Latium? (My unit came "solar ready" but this just looks like for a portable solar unit that is just hooked straight to the battery with no controller).
Any insights on next steps?
Thanks for any insight you can offer!!!

 

[newmarokie]

The smart shunt will not protect your battery. It's purpose is to be for a lack of a better phrase, your systems "fuel gauge". It measures current in and out to let you know how much power you have left. You mention a Li-Bim. If you have that installed, that is what protects your battery. You will have to research your inverter charger and see if it has settings compatible with Lithium. If you add enough solar you will need a solar controller. Most people will say that would need to be a MPPT controller suitable for the amps/volts that your panels will put out.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

First of all welcome!

I might suggest you install the shunt first! You could install any battery monitor,and that would work!

Keep track of hours you use the generator, most have hour meters,if yours doesn't,put one in.
Keep track of the actual wattage used per day! I use kilowatt devices for this. As well as a clamp meter.

Just because your rig manufacturer says solar ready, this in My opinion is deceptive in the true sense of the meaning. Plan on looking at the job as "there may be a stub out of to small wire size for a practical install".

All this advice is not to discourage you! It is the Time and effort nessisary to avoid disappointment!!! Take the time to assess your expectations and needs.

Things to consider:

Many people consider lithium as an end all event! However All one needs to do is search YouTube on EVs to find disillusioned owners that expected longer battery life!

If battery life is what you are expecting you might consider LTO batteries. They are larger per capacity than LiFePo4, but they have a life expectancy that may outlive your children. They are as close to indestructible as is available on the market today!

RVs don't have space on the roof to run the AC for any length of time off solar. The battery bank would need to take all the weight capacity to reach a capacity large enough to run on stored energy for a decent time!

Disclaimer:

I am a realest. I am not an advocate of lithium, this can be seen here by searching My posts on this forum.

I do have time in on this topic, and will offer my advice on the subject!

 

[RollingManCave]

First of all welcome!

I might suggest you install the shunt first! You could install any battery monitor,and that would work!

Keep track of hours you use the generator, most have hour meters,if yours doesn't,put one in.
Keep track of the actual wattage used per day! I use kilowatt devices for this. As well as a clamp meter.

Just because your rig manufacturer says solar ready, this in My opinion is deceptive in the true sense of the meaning. Plan on looking at the job as "there may be a stub out of to small wire size for a practical install".

All this advice is not to discourage you! It is the Time and effort nessisary to avoid disappointment!!! Take the time to assess your expectations and needs.

Things to consider:

Many people consider lithium as an end all event! However All one needs to do is search YouTube on EVs to find disillusioned owners that expected longer battery life!

If battery life is what you are expecting you might consider LTO batteries. They are larger per capacity than LiFePo4, but they have a life expectancy that may outlive your children. They are as close to indestructible as is available on the market today!

RVs don't have space on the roof to run the AC for any length of time off solar. The battery bank would need to take all the weight capacity to reach a capacity large enough to run on stored energy for a decent time!

Disclaimer:

I am a realest. I am not an advocate of lithium, this can be seen here by searching My posts on this forum.

I do have time in on this topic, and will offer my advice on the subjec

 

[RollingManCave]

First of all welcome!

I might suggest you install the shunt first! You could install any battery monitor,and that would work!

Keep track of hours you use the generator, most have hour meters,if yours doesn't,put one in.
Keep track of the actual wattage used per day! I use kilowatt devices for this. As well as a clamp meter.

Just because your rig manufacturer says solar ready, this in My opinion is deceptive in the true sense of the meaning. Plan on looking at the job as "there may be a stub out of to small wire size for a practical install".

All this advice is not to discourage you! It is the Time and effort nessisary to avoid disappointment!!! Take the time to assess your expectations and needs.

Things to consider:

Many people consider lithium as an end all event! However All one needs to do is search YouTube on EVs to find disillusioned owners that expected longer battery life!

If battery life is what you are expecting you might consider LTO batteries. They are larger per capacity than LiFePo4, but they have a life expectancy that may outlive your children. They are as close to indestructible as is available on the market today!

RVs don't have space on the roof to run the AC for any length of time off solar. The battery bank would need to take all the weight capacity to reach a capacity large enough to run on stored energy for a decent time!

Disclaimer:

I am a realest. I am not an advocate of lithium, this can be seen here by searching My posts on this forum.

I do have time in on this topic, and will offer my advice on the subject!

Thank you for your insight. Excuse my ignorance but what does LTO stand for?

 

[RollingManCave]

The smart shunt will not protect your battery. It's purpose is to be for a lack of a better phrase, your systems "fuel gauge". It measures current in and out to let you know how much power you have left. You mention a Li-Bim. If you have that installed, that is what protects your battery. You will have to research your inverter charger and see if it has settings compatible with Lithium. If you add enough solar you will need a solar controller. Most people will say that would need to be a MPPT controller suitable for the amps/volts that your panels will put out.

Thank you for confirming the Li-Bim and educating me on the shunt. I am traveling outside of country and was hoping someone might know the inverter/charger solar ability so I could plan out the system and put a parts list together.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Thank you for your insight. Excuse my ignorance but what does LTO stand for?

Lithium tantalum oxide

 

[John Burke]

Do not know if this will help you or not. I have a 2022 Jayco Eagle HT. It came with 380 watts of solar on the roof and a12-volt compressor fridge. I removed the lead acid battery and put in two 200-amp Lithium batteries with a built in BMS. They need to be kept above 32 degrees to charge. So, I built an insulated wood box, put in two RV water tank thermostatically controlled heaters hooking the heaters to the battery they are under, put the box in the front closet. You can buy batteries with built in heaters, but in North Dakota I doubt they would keep up with -30 temps when out front above the hitch. Plus, it was a lot more cost. I was able to tie into camper battery wiring by the master on/off switch. To control the charging the RV convertor has a small, very small, switch on the front of it. It can be changed between Lithium (LI) and lead acid (LA) the switch is small enough that you need a pick or toothpick to switch it. Moving it to LI will allow shore power or generator to properly charge a Lithium battery. I would suspect yours has the same set-up being that new. My solar controller is managed thru the control panel in the camper. It has settings for LA, LI and AGM. setting it to LI lets you set the charge voltage, mine is at the recommended 14.6 volts. When you add solar get a good MPPT controller that lets you select the type of battery. Get one that has a higher amp rating then you are going to use, that way you can add more solar if you want to. I have a 12-gauge charge line run from my tow vehicle to the camper and have had no alt. problems. It is not on the camper that long. Now I have 400 amp hours of Lithium battery, temp protected, charged from solar, generator and shore power powering my camper. Just for reference, last summer I left the fridge on for 3 months and batteries did not go below 13.2 volts. Last winter I left the furnace set at 65 degrees, fridge on, TV on for about 10 hours at a time, and 3 lights on. just to see how well things worked. At night the outside temp got to 5 degrees and warmed up to 15 during the day. I did this for 5 days using 3 30-pound propane bottles (about 4 gallons a day). Everything worked great. I would rather find flaws at home than on the road. Just a side note, this summer I went tent camping. Took my van, put a small dorm fridge in, two 100-watt solar panels on the roof and one of my 200-amp hour Lithium batteries. The fridge ran for 16 days with a mix of sun, clouds and smoke from Canadas wildfires. I know this got long and I hope it helps you out.

 

[RollingManCave]

Lithium tantalum oxide

Thank you! I will check it out.

 

[RollingManCave]

Do not know if this will help you or not. I have a 2022 Jayco Eagle HT. It came with 380 watts of solar on the roof and a12-volt compressor fridge. I removed the lead acid battery and put in two 200-amp Lithium batteries with a built in BMS. They need to be kept above 32 degrees to charge. So, I built an insulated wood box, put in two RV water tank thermostatically controlled heaters hooking the heaters to the battery they are under, put the box in the front closet. You can buy batteries with built in heaters, but in North Dakota I doubt they would keep up with -30 temps when out front above the hitch. Plus, it was a lot more cost. I was able to tie into camper battery wiring by the master on/off switch. To control the charging the RV convertor has a small, very small, switch on the front of it. It can be changed between Lithium (LI) and lead acid (LA) the switch is small enough that you need a pick or toothpick to switch it. Moving it to LI will allow shore power or generator to properly charge a Lithium battery. I would suspect yours has the same set-up being that new. My solar controller is managed thru the control panel in the camper. It has settings for LA, LI and AGM. setting it to LI lets you set the charge voltage, mine is at the recommended 14.6 volts. When you add solar get a good MPPT controller that lets you select the type of battery. Get one that has a higher amp rating then you are going to use, that way you can add more solar if you want to. I have a 12-gauge charge line run from my tow vehicle to the camper and have had no alt. problems. It is not on the camper that long. Now I have 400 amp hours of Lithium battery, temp protected, charged from solar, generator and shore power powering my camper. Just for reference, last summer I left the fridge on for 3 months and batteries did not go below 13.2 volts. Last winter I left the furnace set at 65 degrees, fridge on, TV on for about 10 hours at a time, and 3 lights on. just to see how well things worked. At night the outside temp got to 5 degrees and warmed up to 15 during the day. I did this for 5 days using 3 30-pound propane bottles (about 4 gallons a day). Everything worked great. I would rather find flaws at home than on the road. Just a side note, this summer I went tent camping. Took my van, put a small dorm fridge in, two 100-watt solar panels on the roof and one of my 200-amp hour Lithium batteries. The fridge ran for 16 days with a mix of sun, clouds and smoke from Canadas wildfires. I know this got long and I hope it helps you out.

I keep reading about a switch but don't remember seeing any. I did find a converter upgrade that can be done that has battery auto sensing, but some said they preferred the switch because solar charger was causing problems with the auto sensing type. Is yours a

WFCO WF-8955. Do you have a picture of the Switch?​

Thank you for the Information!!!

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Look here

WF-8955 Power Center – WFCO Technologies POWER CENTERS

WF-8955 Power Center – Output: 55 amps DC – Input: 105-130 V ac, 60 Hz, 940 W. 55 Amp Power Center. For lithium ready solution click here. – POWER CENTERS https://www.wfcotech.com/shop/power-centers/wf-8955-power-center-3/ WF-8955 Power Center WFCO Technologies WF-8955

www.wfcotech.com

 

[RollingManCave]

Look here

WF-8955 Power Center – WFCO Technologies POWER CENTERS

WF-8955 Power Center – Output: 55 amps DC – Input: 105-130 V ac, 60 Hz, 940 W. 55 Amp Power Center. For lithium ready solution click here. – POWER CENTERS https://www.wfcotech.com/shop/power-centers/wf-8955-power-center-3/ WF-8955 Power Center WFCO Technologies WF-8955

www.wfcotech.com

Thank you, Kevin. I did visit this before but since you sent the link I took a closer look. There is another version in-between the LA only and the Lithium auto sense. It is the 8955 lis. This must be the one mentioned by the earlier poster. You probably have to dig for it because the manufacture has moved onto Auto-sense. Maybe the reason I don't remember the switch is that it is behind the face plate. The other poster mentioned a toothpick size hole. I see now how you could slide a toothpick up from the side of the plastic cutout and flip the switch. I would guess this is the model I have as I only see post about the lead battery model from years before 2015.
Either way I have options to upgrade it.
Now I have to figure out battery size and how big I can go with this converter. Can I put a smaller battery in the battery box and run a wire to a bigger one? Can I wire the Solar charger to one or both Batteries. This would be nice as the then Genset, shore power, alternator and solar would all be options for charging. I think Airconditioning and Microwave only operate on Shore or Genset power. I could add a large inverter to larger battery bank and plug shore power plug into it. Maybe? I am getting an education and staring to understand how this stuff work. On another topic. This web site asks to do push notification. Do those come through just when you are logged in? Thanks Again for the info!!!!

 

[John Burke]

I keep reading about a switch but don't remember seeing any. I did find a converter upgrade that can be done that has battery auto sensing, but some said they preferred the switch because solar charger was causing problems with the auto sensing type. Is yours a

WFCO WF-8955. Do you have a picture of the Switch?​

Thank you for the Information!!!

No picture handy. I found the info in the convertor owner's manual that came with the camper. If I get out there, I will try to get the info you want.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Thank you, Kevin. I did visit this before but since you sent the link I took a closer look. There is another version in-between the LA only and the Lithium auto sense. It is the 8955 lis. This must be the one mentioned by the earlier poster. You probably have to dig for it because the manufacture has moved onto Auto-sense. Maybe the reason I don't remember the switch is that it is behind the face plate. The other poster mentioned a toothpick size hole. I see now how you could slide a toothpick up from the side of the plastic cutout and flip the switch. I would guess this is the model I have as I only see post about the lead battery model from years before 2015.
Either way I have options to upgrade it.
Now I have to figure out battery size and how big I can go with this converter. Can I put a smaller battery in the battery box and run a wire to a bigger one? Can I wire the Solar charger to one or both Batteries. This would be nice as the then Genset, shore power, alternator and solar would all be options for charging. I think Airconditioning and Microwave only operate on Shore or Genset power. I could add a large inverter to larger battery bank and plug shore power plug into it. Maybe? I am getting an education and staring to understand how this stuff work. On another topic. This web site asks to do push notification. Do those come through just when you are logged in? Thanks Again for the info!!!!

Dissimilar batteries on the same system are asking for problems. I am sure if you search this website you will find a good explanation as to why.

As far as pushing notifications I always say no! Don't really understand it, and don't like things that are to convenient. Neal can answer that question.

You can setup your circuits however you want. As systems go mine is simple. My house cord plugs into My inverter. My AC plugs directly into the generator or pedestal( I was plugged into the grid for two months once, that was ample!). Because it is a window unit, I could plug it into the house and supplement the solar, but I would rather travel to a more moderate temperature.

When I had one, My converter was plugged into the generator via an extension cord to avoid a feedback loop.

I am the brain behind the system, so I am also the grunt that must configure it when nessisary. I find it much less troubling!

When you have solidified what you want, then you can get real answers for the methods, and equipment to get there.

Always know that you can get answers here. While exploring the possibilities, and while sourcing equipment!

 

[John Burke]

No picture handy. I found the info in the convertor owner's manual that came with the camper. If I get out there, I will try to get the info you want.

My convertor is a Progressive Dynamics PD4500. When looking at it the dip switch is just about in the lower right corner. It is called Output Mode Switch.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Might I add!

If I were ever planning to connect to the grid! I would invest in a inverter/charger. That eliminates the following, because it is included in one box!!!

Transfer switch
Converter

It is My understanding that the inverter in these units are low frequency/low voltage inverters. Although they are heavier, bigger, and more expensive. They are also the BEST money can buy, and will outlast the low end garbage 10 times.

I have such an inverter without the charging capability, and the reason has been stated in the lines above. Don't ask the brand! Because I built it from parts.

 

[RollingManCave]

No picture handy. I found the info in the convertor owner's manual that came with the camper. If I get out there, I will try to get the info you want

No picture handy. I found the info in the convertor owner's manual that came with the camper. If I get out there, I will try to get the info you want.

Thanks John but I found one online. Looks like it is partially hidden behind the face plate. Probably why I don't remember seeing it. I can swap out converter module if I don't have it. After reading online about the auto sense I think I would rather have the switch. I think you are correct that it's the older units that don't have the option to charge lithium.

 

[RollingManCave]

Dissimilar batteries on the same system are asking for problems. I am sure if you search this website you will find a good explanation as to why.

As far as pushing notifications I always say no! Don't really understand it, and don't like things that are to convenient. Neal can answer that question.

You can setup your circuits however you want. As systems go mine is simple. My house cord plugs into My inverter. My AC plugs directly into the generator or pedestal( I was plugged into the grid for two months once, that was ample!). Because it is a window unit, I could plug it into the house and supplement the solar, but I would rather travel to a more moderate temperature.

When I had one, My converter was plugged into the generator via an extension cord to avoid a feedback loop.

I am the brain behind the system, so I am also the grunt that must configure it when nessisary. I find it much less troubling!

When you have solidified what you want, then you can get real answers for the methods, and equipment to get there.

Always know that you can get answers here. While exploring the possibilities, and while sourcing equipment!

When you say "Dissimilar batteries", do you mean Lead & Lithium or two different amp hour ratings? I was thinking the largest lithium I could fit in the battery box and then chained to another larger Lithium(s).

 

[RollingManCave]

Might I add!

If I were ever planning to connect to the grid! I would invest in a inverter/charger. That eliminates the following, because it is included in one box!!!

Transfer switch
Converter

It is My understanding that the inverter in these units are low frequency/low voltage inverters. Although they are heavier, bigger, and more expensive. They are also the BEST money can buy, and will outlast the low end garbage 10 times.

I have such an inverter without the charging capability, and the reason has been stated in the lines above. Don't ask the brand! Because I built it from parts.

Looking at and trying to figure out "

Victron Energy MultiPlus-II 2X Pure Sine Wave Inverter Charger for 120 amp Battery, 120V, 3000VA 12-Volt" Lots of money for my little 22xg but very impressive" I still need to feed the Converter supply leads to supply the 12-volt appliances. If I hook the coach converter up to the battery bank, I need to disable the alternator charging leads. Is this possible? The MultiPlus does have a hookup for the alternator and for the solar charger. This would eliminate the need for a DC to DC charger and still protect the alternator. Sounds like it has some other nice features like handling the shore power and genset power. Even kills or switches power output while Genset warms up or shuts down. It will even combine battery power to other power for startup surges. I downloaded the manual. Will have to read a few times to make sure it is within my abilities. Probably just have to research the terminology that is new to me. When I figure I don't need an inverter and a dc-dc charger it adds about $600. Might be the way to go. Lots of high tech for my little 22xg. I'll check online for reviews and install advice. I saw these before, but the price and specs were intimidating so I passed them buy. Thanks for pointing out those benefits!​

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Looking at and trying to figure out "

Victron Energy MultiPlus-II 2X Pure Sine Wave Inverter Charger for 120 amp Battery, 120V, 3000VA 12-Volt" Lots of money for my little 22xg but very impressive" I still need to feed the Converter supply leads to supply the 12-volt appliances. If I hook the coach converter up to the battery bank, I need to disable the alternator charging leads. Is this possible? The MultiPlus does have a hookup for the alternator and for the solar charger. This would eliminate the need for a DC to DC charger and still protect the alternator. Sounds like it has some other nice features like handling the shore power and genset power. Even kills or switches power output while Genset warms up or shuts down. It will even combine battery power to other power for startup surges. I downloaded the manual. Will have to read a few times to make sure it is within my abilities. Probably just have to research the terminology that is new to me. When I figure I don't need an inverter and a dc-dc charger it adds about $600. Might be the way to go. Lots of high tech for my little 22xg. I'll check online for reviews and install advice. I saw these before, but the price and specs were intimidating so I passed them buy. Thanks for pointing out those benefits!​

When it comes to Price consider this.

A cheap what's known as an auto inverter has a high frequency step up DC to DC converter. It has small transformers because at high frequency more efficiently (less iron,less copper)! This reduces cost in comparison to what you are looking at now. The unit you are looking at has a 115vac 60 Hz commercial grade transformer that will last, well a life time, unless you abuse it.

The auto inverter has one big problem! They don't make High power diodes that work well with high frequency! Using the Best of the Best, still has a life expectancy of 1.5 to 2 years, when on All the time!

You may get different results, this is from an engineering standpoint.

Then it is switched by high power FETs for your AC power frequency!

On the unit you are now considering, the diodes that cause the problem are eliminated because there is no conversion between a frequency and DC!

The H bridge responsible for converting DC to AC is running at 60hz, and at system voltage (12 to 48 volts typically). This reduces shock to the solid state devices that are doing the work! Expected Life expectancy? 10+ years.

Multiplying the lower priced unit by (on the short side) 5, plus All other expenses make for an easy decision .