Crystalized DEF after setting 5 Months

[bowpulpit]

Have a friend who has been winterizing in Arizona for 5 months and left two days ago to head home to Mississippi. I spoke to him today and he is at Freightliner in El Paso because he got a "low def warning" and a check engine light on day one. Although his DEF tank was full, Freightliner told him the problem was DEF had crystalized in his tank after setting in the AZ heat for 5 months. Freightliner plans to empty his tank, check sensors ect which hopefully will fix the problem. In my friends case his tank was about 2/3 full for the 5 months he was here. Ive never heard of this nor seen any posts regarding a problem of this nature so I'm concerned and curious. In my case I've here in AZ for 3 months (leaving for Ohio in 6 days) and wondering if I need to drain and refill my tank. I will say I topped my tank off the day I arrived in AZ so it's been setting full for 3 months. With this post I'm asking if anyone has experienced this problem and had to drain and refilled their tank after setting for several months in a warm climate. TIA

 

[Neal]

If you simply add DEF to the tank to top it off it should resolve the issue.

 

[bowpulpit]

If you simply add DEF to the tank to top it off it should resolve the issue.

Thanks for the reply Neal. My friend did that (put in a jug-2.5 gallons) yesterday and the warning lights stayed on today from Deming to El Paso.

 

[Sealyn]

Possible DEF Head failure, low DEF warning is one of the indications.

 

[MapNerd]

The shelf life of DEF is approximately six months if kept in a cool, dark environment. Less if not. The result when not stored properly or when expired is crystallization.

While AZ can get cool and dark, it also gets really, really hot.

I don’t find this terribly surprising at all. Topping off the tank might help, but not so much if you’re topping off with a container that you picked up off the store shelf because who knows how long that’s been sitting on the shelf?

Best practice is to get DEF in bill from the pump as that has a high turnover and is constantly being cycled through, so you’re getting it as fresh as possible.

Just my ,02. Your mileage may vary.

 

[bobnjill410]

The shelf life of DEF is approximately six months if kept in a cool, dark environment. Less if not. The result when not stored properly or when expired is crystallization.

While AZ can get cool and dark, it also gets really, really hot.

I don’t find this terribly surprising at all. Topping off the tank might help, but not so much if you’re topping off with a container that you picked up off the store shelf because who knows how long that’s been sitting on the shelf?

Best practice is to get DEF in bill from the pump as that has a high turnover and is constantly being cycled through, so you’re getting it as fresh as possible.

Just my ,02. Your mileage may vary.

I personally have had a major issue with getting DEF from the pump at a truck stop. The results of that actually resulted in me needing to towed to Freightliner. The result of this was contaminated DEF from the pump. They analyzed the contents of my tank and found it was contaminated with diesel fuel. I witnessed that as little as a eye dropper of diesel fuel will turn DEF into a milky substance . Result was a new DEF tank and also had to replace the DEF pump.
This very well could have been a one time freaky occurrence, but it was painful to us. I always look at the manufacture date on the Blue DEF before purchase to avoid the long shelf life product. Just passing on a horrible experience we incurred.

 

[MapNerd]

I personally have had a major issue with getting DEF from the pump at a truck stop. The results of that actually resulted in me needing to towed to Freightliner. The result of this was contaminated DEF from the pump. They analyzed the contents of my tank and found it was contaminated with diesel fuel. I witnessed that as little as a eye dropper of diesel fuel will turn DEF into a milky substance . Result was a new DEF tank and also had to replace the DEF pump.
This very well could have been a one time freaky occurrence, but it was painful to us. I always look at the manufacture date on the Blue DEF before purchase to avoid the long shelf life product. Just passing on a horrible experience we incurred.

That does sound like a mind scarring experience

 

[NWIP]

My question is was your friend stationary for the whole 5 months? I think the benefit of moving the coach every 4-6 weeks not only lubricates the engine but helps with DEF issues by circulating the fluid. I winter in South Florida and haven’t had an issue. Sorry to hear of your friends misfortune.

 

[hawlguy]

That does sound like a mind scarring experience

My son also got contaminated DEF at a truck stop pump. Found it had high volume of water in it. Another reason I deleted my truck.

 

[Rich W.]

So a couple quick notes:
1. There is a TSB on older (pre-2016) DEF level sensors and crystalized DEF so yes, a known problem. They can probably clean his DEF header and re-use it.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2013/MC-10142383-9999.pdf

2. There are charts on DEF storage based on time and temp - best to familiarize yourself with that and deciphering the date code on containers.

3. Although the debate on bulk vs store bought DEF continues, you have control over what you buy with off-the-shelf DEF as you can examine the production date and view storage conditions. Bulk suffices for the vast majority, but Ive had problems withmit twice and will not use it in my coach.

4. Keeping the tank full will help, but after sitting for months, I would then drain the tank, flush with a several gallons of distilled water, and refill with new DEF before traveling, especially after sitting in Arizona.

This is the chart I use although my cut-off is one year old. Lately Ive seen some DEF with the date clearly marked, but some still use the ever-confusing year-minus one/reverse-juliian. This is important when trying to buy DEF less than one year old. A good strategy is to buy from higher volume dealers. I decode it by taking the year listed (first two numbers) and subtracting the Julian date (next three). The two letters preceding the date code denote the location of production.

 

[Richpatty]

I agree with these points…and I am concerned about experiencing these issues since we have not driven as much in the past two years, so I am not turning my DEF over as often. And I would like to drain my tank but there does not seem to be any easy way to do it (Freightliner) and there is no drain plug…

Any thoughts on a work around?

 

[Neal]

People that continue to just top off don't realize they are just aging their DEF fluid, I let mine get down to below half at least before I refill. If I've been sitting for a period of time such as now, I don't store full so I can add DEF to reliquify any crystalization. My hunch is the above has a clogged DPF filter or some other failure in the system and not related to DEF itself.

 

[Rich W.]

People that continue to just top off don't realize they are just aging their DEF fluid, I let mine get down to below half at least before I refill. If I've been sitting for a period of time such as now, I don't store full so I can add DEF to reliquify any crystalization. My hunch is the above has a clogged DPF filter or some other failure in the system and not related to DEF itself.

Or clogged DEF filter - forgot to mention that. Rigs that sit allow the DEF filter to dry out causing crystalized DEF to block it prematurely. Ive seen published maintenance intervals of 150k-300k miles but thats for trucks that run every day. RVs that sit for months need more frequent filter changes. Its an easy job and filters are around $45 for Bosch ($100+ if it says Cummins on the box, even though its the same Bosch filter). I do mine annually and carry a spare.

And unfortunately it could also be a failed DEF pump which will also trigger a “Low DEF” code, adding to the confusion. When my pump failed it was putting out about 5psi, when it should be around 115-150 (or shoot DEF across the shop if you dont have a gauge). And a plugged up filter can lead to early pump failure.

My rig came from Arizona where it only saw less than 3k miles/year of driving. So it sat in Arizona in the heat quite a bit before I bought it two years ago. The things you learn…. I’m hopeful that DEF pressure can be added to the list of data shown on live-data diagnostics in the near future.

As for draining, I simply siphon it out and carry a siphon hose. A hand pump from an old outboard can be handy for this (as well as changing your power steering fluid and filter). Its best to dispose of the old DEF properly, but it is essentially just liquid fertilizer.

 

[bowpulpit]

Such great info from all that answered. Thank You
Freightliner took my friends Ventana LE into the shop about 2pm today.
Will post the outcome once I hear from them.
I purchased a Refractometer on Amazon today. Arrives sometime tomorrow.
Following you'all's advice I will test what's been in my tank these last 3 months and go from there.
More later.
Thanks Again

 

[DavidL]

Fix for crystalized DEF - go camping more

 

[Rich W.]

Such great info from all that answered. Thank You
Freightliner took my friends Ventana LE into the shop about 2pm today.
Will post the outcome once I hear from them.
I purchased a Refractometer on Amazon today. Arrives sometime tomorrow.
Following you'all's advice I will test what's been in my tank these last 3 months and go from there.
More later.
Thanks Again

It will be interesting to hear the results. What year is his coach? Hopefully they will be able to remove, clean and reinstall his existing DEF header (as per the TSB, if thats the problem) and be done with it.

One of the problems Ive encountered is techs guessing their way through these problems and performing tasks, such as forced regen, that are unrelated and do not address the problem. But they rack up the hours in the process.

I had mine in three times for emissions problems while under warranty, and the previous owner had the DEF header replaced as well. Once my emissions warranty ended I made it my mission to bettrer understand the system so that I wont be at the mercy or incompetent or unscrupulous shops. I also use a refractometer but have never seen a reading that would indicate bad DEF.

I also will only go to an approved Freighter shop, but will do everything I can to avoid that, and will boycott Cummins shops if at all possible. Lessons learned….there’s more but I’ll save it for another day.

 

[bowpulpit]

One of the problems Ive encountered is techs guessing their way through these problems and performing tasks, such as forced regen, that are unrelated and do not address the problem. But they rack up the hours in the process.

The saga continues.....
My friends called about 2 hours ago very happy as they were out of Freightliner and on their way from El Paso to Van Horne. I asked what the fix was and they said the Tech did a "forced regen"!
Well....about 15 minutes ago well on their way they called me and said ALL lights were back on! They have not derated and keeping their fingers crossed they can make it to Van Horne for the night and determine next steps tomorrow.
I had just finished reading your post Rich W when they called.

 

[Rich W.]

The saga continues.....
My friends called about 2 hours ago very happy as they were out of Freightliner and on their way from El Paso to Van Horne. I asked what the fix was and they said the Tech did a "forced regen"!
Well....about 15 minutes ago well on their way they called me and said ALL lights were back on! They have not derated and keeping their fingers crossed they can make it to Van Horne for the night and determine next steps tomorrow.
I had just finished reading your post Rich W when they called.

This is one of the problems we face. All regens, passive, active, and manual (aka parked or forced), happen in the DPF in an effort to burn off soot to keep the filter clear, active and manual occuring with the benefit of increased heat provided by injecting diesel into the exhaust.

DEF is injected in the SCR where urea, under high heat, converts to ammonia which in turn through a chemical reaction converts NOX (nitrogen oxide) into nitrogen and oxygen (air).

Thats all great (when it works) but it all happens AFTER the DPF and is completely unrelated to the soot filter which is cleaned by performing regens. But in my experience its the first thing a tech will do as a “rule out”.

Below is schematic of the sysstem: DOC, DPF, then SCR. So you can see that if you have a DEF problem, no efforts to change things in the DPF will address the issue.

Im sure the tech cleared the codes and reset the emissions sensing stuff, which got the owner out of the shop and down the road a ways, but did nothing to address the DEF issue, which is undoutably a faulty senssor, whether in need of cleaning or replacing. Once the sensors detected the problem for a long enough period, the codes came back.

Eventually he will be derated in three stages (see 2,3, and 4 in the second chart). He may not notice the first stage (25%) unless he’s towing and/or climbing grades. It would be interesting to see the codes he is getting on the LBCU. Reading the codes will also help him estimate how far he can drive before the final stage of derate restricting him to 5mph.

In the mean time he should not shut off the engine (limit ignition cycles as the ECM apparently counts them) or get fuel unless absolutely necessary, as these things accelerate the derate process.

Here’s a couple of other items to consider when you have DEF related codes and warning lights:
1 If check engine and the other s DEF lights are on and you fill your fuel tank you will be you will be derated right away.
2 If you idle the engine for more then 1 hour with the same lights as above you will also be derated.

Ive also read that you can get fuel as long as you dont add more than 20 gallons. Some of this is from qualitifed sources, some is anecdotal, and some is probably guess work. But this is the only hope of delaying a full derate.

I would have turned around and headed back to El Paso (Im sure its too late now) since its 120 miles to Van Horn, and to my knowledge there are no resources there that can help. Eventually he will derate. I wouldn't drive any more than absolutely necessary as it is impossible to determine exactly when the final stafe of derate will occur.

 

[Rich W.]

The saga continues.....
My friends called about 2 hours ago very happy as they were out of Freightliner and on their way from El Paso to Van Horne. I asked what the fix was and they said the Tech did a "forced regen"!
Well....about 15 minutes ago well on their way they called me and said ALL lights were back on! They have not derated and keeping their fingers crossed they can make it to Van Horne for the night and determine next steps tomorrow.
I had just finished reading your post Rich W when they called.

PM sent, and not to overwhelm, but of its just a Low DEF code, its probably the tank level sensor and servicable. If its the “dreaded three” it’s a DEF header failure and will require replacement.

Also if his chassis has pre-2016 emissions, it will not have the quality sensor (thankfully) and the level sensor will be mechanical and possibly serviceable. Also if coach is under five years old and 100k miles, all of this is under the emissions warranty.

The three:
1761 – Diesel Exhaust Fluid Tank Volume
3031 – Diesel Exhaust Fluid Tank Temperature
3364 – Diesel Exhaust Fluid Quality

There may be other codes involved as well. Hopefully he can operate his LBCU. If not instructions are readily available.

 

[Rich W.]

This is a page from OTR diagnostics for fault code 3547 (DEF tank empty). He may not have this code but this image shows the drive times before derate. But the thing to remember is that derate is also affected by the conditions listed in post 18. So its a crap shoot and I wouldnt rely on 40 hours of drive time.