2015 VENTANA LE LITHIUM BATTERY UPGRADE

[RDMOCALA]

Has anyone upgraded their house batteries from lead acid to lithium? What did you need to change from a charging standpoint if anything? Did you need to change the inverter?

 

[Richpatty]

The answer is, it depends…. Not sure what charger/inverter you have, although I suspect it is a magnum. If so, I have been told you can set it to AGM2 and the lithiums should be happy. But it could vary depending on model of Magnum and whose batteries you use. My info comes from Battleborn.

Hope this helps.

 

[Buly]

Be careful and research the issue. It is not as simple. I went thru the same exercise this year. But after all that I learned, decided to upgrade from lead acid to AGM, since I will not keep the coach for 10 years.
If the money is no problem, pay someone specializing in lithium installation to do it.

 

[Joe Hogan]

As stated above, it depends. The Magnum Inverter works well with our setup. Batteries with self contained management, i.e BMS, should not have any problems.

We installed 600 amps of LifeBlue, two 300 amp packs.

These batteries have worked well with the Magnum inverter and Victron battery/charger controller for the 1400 Watts of solar on the roof.

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[Old-RV'er]

NOTE-This is on topic-why-because the costs to change from Lead Acid to LE batteries have a bunch of costs which the vendor will not tell you about initially. In previous MH went from LA to AGM, an excellent compromise with about the same expected life. Unless you only boondock, or rarely use Shore Power/RV Parks, the expense will never pay for itself in the (assumed) life of the coach you have left. Realize some MHs are 40 years old and still on the road looking like the day they were delivered.
1. First, you need to make sure the current charger unit (assumed Xantrex or Magnum) can handle the "type of charge the LE's need". If not, additional aftermarket equipment will have to be installed in line/place of the existing equipment. As minimum, some monitoring equipment now "not present" will have to be installed.
2. Is the cost to reclaim the LE's built into the purchase price, because of the below I won't touch LE batteries on an industrial scale for nothing.
3. LE's and its technology is most in my opinion hype, also, the batteries "may be assembled here", but the actual components are foreign made because we have very serious environmental laws on Lithium, it's known to be highly toxic, deadly in fact. FWIW-Elon's battery plant near Las Vegas is costing billions, because of the environmental rules he has to meet. The agreement he did have with Panasonic I believe fell apart for reasons not disclosed.

The LE"s only pencil out over an expected 10-year life, and that assumes you need that type of tech to effectively use your motorhome the way you want too. From costs associated, when mine need replacement, I can do it for about 1/10 the costs of LE's.

Subject: AN EXCELLENT TUTORIAL ON BATTERIES! -Please see my italicized comments at end.
An educational read that will enable you to understand where our existing battery technology really is and the folly of this insane rush to cancel fossil fuels. Do not let the long read deter you. Although a fictionalized event, the information is factual.

When I saw the title of this lecture, especially with the picture of the scantily clad model, I couldn’t resist attending. The packed auditorium was abuzz with questions about the address; nobody seemed to know what to expect. The only hint was a large aluminum block sitting on a sturdy table on the stage.

When the crowd settled down, a scholarly-looking man walked out and put his hand on the shiny block, “Good evening,” he said, “I am here to introduce NMC532-X,” and he patted the block, “we call him NM for short,” and the man smiled proudly. “NM is a typical electric vehicle (EV) car battery in every way except one; we programmed him to send signals of the internal movements of his electrons when charging, discharging, and in several other conditions. We wanted to know what it feels like to be a battery. We don’t know how it happened, but NM began to talk after we downloaded the program.

Despite this ability, we put him in a car for a year and then asked him if he’d like to do presentations about batteries. He readily agreed on the condition he could say whatever he wanted. We thought that was fine, and so, without further ado, I’ll turn the floor over to NM,” the man turned and walked off the stage.

“Good evening,” NM said. He had a slightly affected accent, and when he spoke, he lit up in different colors. “That cheeky woman on the marquee was my idea,” he said. “Were she not there, along with ‘naked’ in the title, I’d likely be speaking to an empty auditorium! I also had them add ‘shocking’ because it’s a favorite word amongst us batteries.” He flashed a light blue color as he laughed.

“Sorry,” NM giggled then continued, “three days ago, at the start of my last lecture, three people walked out. I suppose they were disappointed there would be no dancing girls. But here is what I noticed about them. One was wearing a battery-powered hearing aid, one tapped on his battery-powered cell phone as he left, and a third got into his car, which would not start without a battery. So I’d like you to think about your day for a moment; how many batteries do you rely on?”

He paused for a full minute which gave us time to count our batteries. Then he went on, “Now, it is not elementary to ask, ‘what is a battery?’ I think Tesla said it best when they called us Energy Storage Systems. That’s important. We do not make electricity – we store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So, to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid. Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, n’est-ce pas?”

He flashed blue again. “Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five-thousand-pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.”

He lit up red when he said that, and I sensed he was smiling. Then he continued in blue and orange. “Mr. Elkay introduced me as NMC532. If I were the battery from your computer mouse, Elkay would introduce me as double-A, if from your cell phone as CR2032, and so on. We batteries all have the same name depending on our design. By the way, the ‘X’ in my name stands for ‘experimental.’

There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.

Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium.

The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them. (OR/WA has battery recycling-not sure if it is mandatory). Waste Management has the contract for it in WA.

All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old, ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery’s metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out.

The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.

In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle batteries like me or care to dispose of single-use ones properly.

But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs.”

NM got redder as he spoke. “Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.

In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.

The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.

Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it’s back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.

But wait - can you guess one of the highest but rarely acknowledged embedded costs?” NM said, then gave us about thirty seconds to make our guesses. Then he flashed his lights and said, “It’s the depreciation on the 5000-pound car you used to transport one pound of canned beans!”

NM took on a golden glow, and I thought he might have winked. He said, “But that can of beans is nothing compared to me! I am hundreds of times more complicated. My embedded costs not only come in the form of energy use; they come as environmental destruction, pollution, disease, child labor, and the inability to be recycled.”

He paused, “I weigh one thousand pounds, and as you see, I am about the size of a travel trunk.” NM’s lights showed he was serious. “I contain twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside me are 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.

It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each auto battery like me, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth’s crust for just - one - battery.”

He let that one sink in, then added, “I mentioned disease and child labor a moment ago. Here’s why. Sixty-eight percent of the world’s cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?”

NM’s red and orange light made it look like he was on fire. “Finally,” he said, “I’d like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being ‘green,’ but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.

The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled. -FACT, used solar cells are NOT recyclable.

Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weigh 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle* used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.

NM lights dimmed, and he quietly said, “There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. I’m trying to do my part with these lectures.

Thank you for your attention, good night, and good luck.” NM’s lights went out, and he was quiet, like a regular battery.

*Rumor-One company is reportedly recycling used blades and putting that mess into concrete. I have NOT verified this to be fact”.

Facts - But the blades are made of fiberglass, the resin used in fiberglass, produces lots of harmful byproducts, and the workers who make them, have to use Breathing Apparatus so the fumes do not harm them. Styrene is one of the byproducts of it’s construction, and has been identified as cancer causing, we are currently burying blades into the ground, with NO protective barrier under/around them, as they break down, those chemicals are released into the ground, and ultimately the water which we might have to drink. And you must have seen all those blades going down the road on the back, of what? – A diesel powered tractor trailer truck with a lead and following vehicle with lights flashing “wide load”, so exactly where and what are we saving.

Please review the winter storm last year which affected Texas, and the billions of damage from frozen plumbing because no electricity, why, dummies tried to shift grid to windmills, hmmm, when freezing temps and rain, ice forms on blades, they are shut down and locked, so cannot turn, no electricity, why, ice could break off blades and be flung hundreds of feet away, causing more damage to other Windmills or anyone near the object when it hits. Then the dummies limited natural gas deliveries, and pipes froze. Stupid. But T. Boone Pickins heirs walked all the way to the bank, because he was instrumental in getting TX to shift much of their grid to Wind Energy, which he then delivered and built.

Please also note, it takes 6 times the normal amount of electricity to bring a “blacked out area” back on the grid, why, people leave all their stuff on, instead of the refer and one light, everything is on, so only very limited areas can be restored and then that function moved on to the next little area. Then you got to worry about the idiot, with the generator, who did not turn off the main and is back feeding the grid, putting the workers at risk of electrocution.

Landfills-aka-garbage dumps: Most but not all states have not one environmental rule on the management, construction and maintenance of a landfill. Oregon, California, Washington states do have rules, the ground is excavated down to the desired depth of each containment section, all rocks are removed, a ground water system is installed, and gas extraction plumbing may be installed, a heavy thick membrane is then placed over this hole, and more dirt is placed over that, and then the “landfill” is ready for garbage, and waste. Hazardous waste sites are supposed to have even stricter construction rules. To my knowledge, no states other than OR, WA, and CA require batteries (household type) to be recycled, here we toss them in the garbage, no rules period, reading the above makes me choose another method if possible. I think Home Depot, and Lowes have baskets in front of the store for waste batteries, I am going to save up ours and use that method, now what do they do with them I have no idea. All automotive batteries (lead acid type) are recycled, and the components are reused, I know we did at BPA hazardous facility, I used to move them to the pickup location for them to be taken to the facility.

 

[RDMOCALA]

Excellent article and an eye opener. Probably will rethink this whole battery issue. Thanks for the input

 

[Richpatty]

This is not the place to discuss such policy. The question was on how to perform the task and not the political motivations on why you wouldn’t do it.

 

[Old-RV'er]

Partly Correct, however, I did not post it only so all of you could learn, knowledge is king, if this information bothers you that was not the intent. To spend thousands of dollars on new batteries, and not know the downstream effects to every facet of owning an RV that is sad. I used to work at our Hazardous Waste Facility and was exposed to all kinds of commonplace items which in certain conditions can kill you. People should know not only what they are seeking, but the aftereffects of those decisions. FWIW-Halon fire extinguisher systems are the cat's meow, so damage to electrical/electronic systems are not damage when discharged, so many people have/had them installed into engine compartments to prevent fire. However, when released, and if an engine is operating, the halon is ingested into the combustion chamber, combining with the gases present, and it is changed into MUSTARD GAS which can and has killed people. When that came out, it was then changed to only locations where combustion engines are not present, it also displaces oxygen, so personnel in those spaces have only a half-minute or so to vacate space before being overcome by no air to breathe. So, the point, we as humans, need to think "past the immediate need/want" to see the long-term ramifications, having my post educates all of us on those ramifications.

 

[Landsub]

Has anyone upgraded their house batteries from lead acid to lithium? What did you need to change from a charging standpoint if anything? Did you need to change the inverter?

Depending on the age of your rig. My 2008 does not have a selection on the inverter for lithium.

 

[B52Bombardier1]

And a Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo) battery can't be recharged below a freezing temperature. Choose carefully here and buy a recharger with a temperature probe and the correct type of recharge profile for a LiFePo battery.

Rick

 

[Richpatty]

Yes….lithiums cannot be charged much below freezing, but they can be USED below freezing. And it is not hard to keep them warm or enclose the compartment…. And even though you may not have a lithium profile, as long as you can do a custom profile, you should be fine.

And lithiums do not need temperature probes for proper charging (as LA batteries do).

 

[Gizmo]

Be sure to change your "BIRD" to prevent burning up your alternator. I got this information directly from Battle Born while researching Lithium batteries after being first told they were direct replacements.

 

[Richpatty]

Or BIM….

 

[Parts guy]

Has anyone upgraded their house batteries from lead acid to lithium? What did you need to change from a charging standpoint if anything? Did you need to change the inverter?

You will need to change your converter to one that can take lithium. A lot of the Wfco’s now make your series with an auto detect that detects the battery you are using to give the proper charge… that’s all you need to do