CA strikes again with CARB ACT

[Neal]

Pretty cool, I was able to move the HVAC post back, it's at post 132 above.

 

[redbaron]

Must be magic pixie dust. You cannot break the laws of physics and thermodynamics.

I recently replaced 30 tons of air conditioning in my home (6 units). My previous units where 14 Seer Trane units that where high tech at the time and very efficient. They had 3 stages of power to save energy.

The new units are 24 seer inverter heat pumps that are infinite number of stages as it scrolls up and down (like a CVVT). The interior fans are also infinite stage.

The end result is my power bill was cut drastically (45% in the summer months) comparing the July 2024 to the August 2024 bills. August was actually a hotter month, and I was home for more of the month, whereas I was gone all of July. During July the house was set to 76F, and August spent most of the month at 68F, with daily temperatures over 100F.

The point of all of this is that technology does exist to use less power and provide better cooling. The units on our RVs are about the oldest design possible and have no efficiency. Think about how Newmar has ducted the air. The intake and return are in the same place, separated by just a few inches.

If the return was placed on one side, and air was drawn across the room, it would provide better circulation, and require less run time and save energy.

The whole idea of CARB is to reduce the need for emissions, and by reducing the need for energy we can get there much faster.

I would like to see a bill that would make HVAC perform better and allow me to keep the coach 68F year round, no matter how many times the dog has to go out. And it would be an even better bill if the HVAC ratings specified that I could keep the blinds up to see the scenery.

 

[turbopilot]

The point of all of this is that technology does exist to use less power and provide better cooling. The units on our RVs are about the oldest design possible and have no efficiency. Think about how Newmar has ducted the air. The intake and return are in the same place, separated by just a few inches.

The technology is now widely available for high efficient RV HVAC systems. At it heart the LightShip HVAC system is basically the same found in most automotive EV's and hybrids. My Tesla uses such a system with a high voltage DC compressor. Same system is buried into the F-150 PowerBoost. The reason these EV's and hybrids need these very efficient HVAC systems is to keep the lithium batteries cool. Cabin heating and cooling is just along for the ride.

This technology is off the shelf but it requires big lithium batteries and/or traction motors to make them run. They will not easily operate as a belt driven device in the engine compartment. I have an App that watches many parameters on my F-150 hybrid. On hot days the high voltage compressor is running over 7,000 RPM drawing 5 or 6 amps @ 280 volts, off the lithium battery that is supported by the traction motor between the engine and transmission.

The point here is that high efficiency HVAC in an RV is going to require high voltage and that is where it all comes together in the concept of a LightShip RV.

Yes, a distant subject from a CARB ban but at the same time all this technology completely makes the CARB ban meaningless when applied to RV's of the future.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Must be magic pixie dust. You cannot break the laws of physics and thermodynamics.

Although I am sure it's just advertising! I am equally certain that observation (science), has modified how the universe is understood, and viewed! Those that do dig deeper can't be influenced by bull! Or not!!!

That said I don't see anything here that offers advanced technology! But some will buy into it, add this startup may have a market!

 

[turbopilot]

Must be magic pixie dust. You cannot break the laws of physics and thermodynamics.

The magic is efficiency. For an RV, the combination of high voltage batteries and high voltage, high speed heat pumps allows you to heat and cool an RV for extended periods of time using a central HVAC system. That means heating without propane and cooling much more efficient than those old fashioned, modified window air conditioners by Dometic sitting on the roof. No laws of physics are broken but they are significantly enhanced.

But the magic does not stop with heating and cooling. The very same HVAC system provides energy and battery conditioning to power the RV down the highway, just like a Tesla. And the traction motors in wheels return energy to the battery for future heating, cooling and vehicle movement.

This is not a vision of future dreams. Everything is now off the shelf ready to use but nobody has applied this technology to RV's. The future is now but for some venture capital investment.

From Google Gemini. Where ever they talk about heat you can substitute cool since they are heat pumps.

Heat pumps are becoming increasingly common in electric vehicles (EVs) because they offer significant efficiency advantages over traditional resistive heating systems. Here's a breakdown of why they're so efficient, particularly the high-voltage models:

How Heat Pumps Work

• Refrigerant Cycle: Heat pumps utilize a refrigerant cycle similar to your refrigerator, but in reverse. They extract heat from the outside air (even cold air) and transfer it into the vehicle cabin.
  
  
• Components: Key components include a compressor, condenser, expansion valve, and evaporator. These work together to move heat by changing the refrigerant's state between liquid and gas.
  

Efficiency Advantages of High-Voltage Heat Pumps in EVs

• Coefficient of Performance (COP): Heat pumps are measured by their COP, which is the ratio of heat output to energy input. High-voltage heat pumps in EVs can achieve COPs of 2-3 or even higher. This means for every 1 unit of electricity consumed, they can produce 2-3 units of heat.
• Reduced Battery Drain:Compared to resistive heaters that directly convert electricity to heat (COP of 1), heat pumps significantly reduce the energy drawn from the battery. This leads to:
  • Increased Range: Especially in cold climates, heat pumps can extend the driving range of EVs by up to 20-30%.
    
    
  • Reduced Charging Time: Less energy consumption translates to less frequent charging needs.
• Improved Performance in Cold Weather:High-voltage heat pumps are designed to operate efficiently even in colder temperatures, where traditional heat pumps might struggle. They often incorporate features like:
  • Vapor Injection: Enhances the efficiency of the refrigerant cycle in low temperatures.
    
    
  • Economizers: Optimize refrigerant flow for better performance.
    
• Integration with EV Systems: High-voltage heat pumps can be seamlessly integrated with the EV's high-voltage battery system, eliminating the need for inefficient DC-DC converters.
  
  
• Additional Benefits
  

• Cooling Capability: Heat pumps can also cool the cabin in the summer, acting as an air conditioner.
  
  
• Compact Size: Modern high-voltage heat pumps are designed to be compact, saving space and weight in the vehicle.

Challenges and Considerations

• Cost: High-voltage heat pumps can be more expensive than resistive heaters, although the cost is coming down.
• Complexity:They are more complex systems, potentially requiring more maintenance.
  
  
• Performance Variation: Efficiency can still be affected by extreme temperatures and humidity.
  

Overall, high-voltage heat pumps are a crucial technology for improving the efficiency and range of EVs, particularly in regions with cold climates. They offer a significant advantage over traditional heating methods and are becoming increasingly prevalent in modern EVs.

 

[osuallen]

@turbopilot as a professional HVAC engineer for 40 years, I know all of what you posted. None of this is new and earth shattering, it has been described to sound revolutionary. Also a lot of it is talking about improving HP performance in very cold temperatures - which most RVers tend to avoid.

 

[osuallen]

I recently replaced 30 tons of air conditioning in my home (6 units). My previous units where 14 Seer Trane units that where high tech at the time and very efficient. They had 3 stages of power to save energy.

The new units are 24 seer inverter heat pumps that are infinite number of stages as it scrolls up and down (like a CVVT). The interior fans are also infinite stage.

The end result is my power bill was cut drastically (45% in the summer months) comparing the July 2024 to the August 2024 bills. August was actually a hotter month, and I was home for more of the month, whereas I was gone all of July. During July the house was set to 76F, and August spent most of the month at 68F, with daily temperatures over 100F.

The point of all of this is that technology does exist to use less power and provide better cooling. The units on our RVs are about the oldest design possible and have no efficiency. Think about how Newmar has ducted the air. The intake and return are in the same place, separated by just a few inches.

If the return was placed on one side, and air was drawn across the room, it would provide better circulation, and require less run time and save energy.

The whole idea of CARB is to reduce the need for emissions, and by reducing the need for energy we can get there much faster.

I would like to see a bill that would make HVAC perform better and allow me to keep the coach 68F year round, no matter how many times the dog has to go out. And it would be an even better bill if the HVAC ratings specified that I could keep the blinds up to see the scenery.

Yes HVAC equipment has experienced large improvements since the early-mid 90's when your 14.5 SEER units were installed. BTW: heat in = heat out. the improved air circulation by proper designing the supply & return air systems improves human comfort, but has very little effect on system energy consumption unless the original design was very, very, wrong.

 

[turbopilot]

Yes HVAC equipment has experienced large improvements since the early-mid 90's when your 14.5 SEER units were installed. BTW: heat in = heat out. the improved air circulation by proper designing the supply & return air systems improves human comfort, but has very little effect on system energy consumption unless the original design was very, very, wrong.

We are talking about RV systems. I don't think I have ever seen an RV with a central HVAC system for both heating and cooling, much less a high efficiency system. Even if the AC units in the roof have heat pumps they are typically very loud and inefficient. Most RV's cool from old fashioned, inefficient roof mounted AC units and heat form even more inefficient propane fire forced heating systems. The hope for change being pushed by LightShip is a central HVAC with quiet air flow providing efficient heating and cooling. That is what is "revolutionary" change for an RV.

Here is a link to a detailed review of the HVAC system.

 

[Rich W.]

Don’t know if this has been discussed yet, but…

https://www.cummins.com/engines/x15n-2024?sfid=7015G000001Vn8JQAS&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=paid-social&utm_campaign=corp-na-brand-power_onward&utm_content=x15n-re-single_image-learn_more-en-a&dclid=CPfevZme-YkDFbCcjggdAngl4g

Maybe a light at the end of the tunnel? Maybe for MA anyway…

 

[Scooterfan]

Yup...let the market figure it out. I am grateful for this forum. Happy Thanksgiving...Blessings

 

[turbopilot]

Yup...let the market figure it out. I am grateful for this forum. Happy Thanksgiving...Blessings

This looks like a great new internal combustion engine. But there is a problem. CARB is banning (progressively) all internal combustion engines by 2036. This new engine is already a dinosaur by CARB standards.

The CARB ban is not about pollution generated by internal combustion engines. We are far past that now. CARB simply wants all vehicles not to have any tailpipe emission profile except water in the case of ICE using hydrogen. Of course over 50% of the electricity is generated by fossil fuels in California but that little detail is not considered.

California is on a crusade to limit your choices. The "market" is fake because the state is picking the winners not the citizens.

There was an interesting news story on local California television about diesel engine's role in supporting California infrastructure. Large diesel trucks and heavy equipment primarily support all electrical, water, sewer and gas infrastructure in the State of California. There is virtually no EV vehicles available to support those infrastructure needs. But those vehicles are also swept up in the CARB ICE bans facing the progress 2036 deadline. Even if EV's were available for those heavy vehicles there is no way to keep them charged supporting remote infrastructure like remote power lines, canals and pipelines.

This whole CARB ICE ban is heading for a big crash. RV's are just the first to get hit.

 

[Neemer]

These fiats by the unelected need to cease and desist.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

And it's gonna get crazier!

 

[redbaron]

Land man and Billy Bob Thornton had the greatest rant that cleared up the whole basis of clean energy and it directly relates to carb:

 

[ARD]

Don’t know if this has been discussed yet, but…

https://www.cummins.com/engines/x15n-2024?sfid=7015G000001Vn8JQAS&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=paid-social&utm_campaign=corp-na-brand-power_onward&utm_content=x15n-re-single_image-learn_more-en-a&dclid=CPfevZme-YkDFbCcjggdAngl4g

Maybe a light at the end of the tunnel? Maybe for MA anyway…

Just saw a video of a 2025 Newell recently with a Cummins X15N.