Resolved Coach lights up but doesn't turn when hitting ignition, generator won't do anything either.

[Kuate]

I found two fuses 70 and 5 labeled ignition and both look fine.

My coach is a 1999 American Tradition. I'm new to motorcoach btw, approximately two or three weeks in.

At the campgrounds I noticed the chassis batteries were not charging (in fact I lost charge) and had to fire it up with the Aux charge.

I parked it next to our house and added a battery tender to charge the two batteries. Two chassis batteries in serial. I wasn't sure how to charge it so I just used one battery. Next day it read full. I then proceeded to move the negative cable from that one battery to the other battery (so negative on one battery, positve on second battery since they are serialed); which was something I saw on solar charging. I figured this was the same pattern I needed to do

Anyhow, long story short. I had been messing around with two switches that turn off chassis and coach batteries so that they don't drain when not in use. Today i turned on the house batteries and fired up the inverter and everything worked as expected. I proceeded to try to turn on the generator and nothing. No clicking or anything. I tried to turn on the coach from the ignition inside and it lights up and I can see the gauges go up and down but when I try to crank, nothing happens. I found a 70 amp labeled ignition and another 5 amp also labeled ignition and both look good.

Any ideas? I'm thinking there must be a breaker somewhere. I'll keep looking but curious if anybody could throw me a bone and tell me what else to look for.

Thanks in advance!!!!

 

[Rich W.]

I may be reading this wrong but…..Unless your chassis batteries are 6 volt or you have a 24 volt starter, your chassis batteries should be in parallel. If you have two 12 volt chassis batteries and you wired them in series, you would get 24 volts but only half the amperage than if the two chassis batteries wired in parallel. So your dash would light up but your starter wouldn’t crank. If thats the case, hopefully 24 volts to the 12 volt system didn’t damage anything. But as I said, I may be reading this wrong…? On my coach the cables aren’t long enough to change the chassis battery wiring to serial.

 

[Kuate]

You are correct; I misstated. Yes they are in parallel (not serial as stated) . The tender charger supports 12v and 24v. But both times it only registered 12 v when charging. I’m assuming there has to be a fuse somewhere. While the 70 amp fuse looked fine I may just replace it anyways just to rule it out. Question, would the ignition fuse knockout both ignition and generator from starting?

 

[Rich W.]

These things are always difficult to figure out remotely, but three things here:
1. 12 volts would be a correct reading on the chassis system and the house system unless reading 6v house batteries individually.
2. Easy enough to test continuity in a fuse with a multi-meter before going to the trouble to buy one, although always good to carry spares.
3. There are no fuses between the batteries and starters, but if your gauges light up, your ignition system is getting power.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Can you help us? Draw out a simple diagram of your battery configuration so we know what you did. You don't have to get fancy, simple blocks and lines. Do it on paper and use your camera to upload.

 

[Wemustrv]

I found two fuses 70 and 5 labeled ignition and both look fine.

My coach is a 1999 American Tradition. I'm new to motorcoach btw, approximately two or three weeks in.

At the campgrounds I noticed the chassis batteries were not charging (in fact I lost charge) and had to fire it up with the Aux charge.

I parked it next to our house and added a battery tender to charge the two batteries. Two chassis batteries in serial. I wasn't sure how to charge it so I just used one battery. Next day it read full. I then proceeded to move the negative cable from that one battery to the other battery (so negative on one battery, positve on second battery since they are serialed); which was something I saw on solar charging. I figured this was the same pattern I needed to do

Anyhow, long story short. I had been messing around with two switches that turn off chassis and coach batteries so that they don't drain when not in use. Today i turned on the house batteries and fired up the inverter and everything worked as expected. I proceeded to try to turn on the generator and nothing. No clicking or anything. I tried to turn on the coach from the ignition inside and it lights up and I can see the gauges go up and down but when I try to crank, nothing happens. I found a 70 amp labeled ignition and another 5 amp also labeled ignition and both look good.

Any ideas? I'm thinking there must be a breaker somewhere. I'll keep looking but curious if anybody could throw me a bone and tell me what else to look for.

Thanks in advance!!!!

 

[Wemustrv]

I am with Kevin on this a sketch would be helpful. By chance did the battery disconnect get switched off?

 

[Kuate]

Hi all, thanks for chiming in.

I recorded a video and posted on vimeo here


The batteries were in parallel and stayed in parallel. I only disconnected them today to have them checked at NAPA. One was bad and the other was almost bad. They gave me two new ones under warranty.

I replaced them exactly as I saw them, paralle.. positive on one side for both batteries, negative on other side for both batteries (video may not show but as someone else mentioned, the chassis batteries dont have enough wiring to make them serial (my apologies here for not using the right terminology and threw people off on a bunny trail, ill fix the post).

So far I've checked ignition fuses and ignition relay. Checked power to the starter using meter and it checks at 12.5. I have not tried to manually start it and I also have not tried using the starter relay to start it. I'm still learning so those are two items ill try tomorrow or day after (coach is 15 miles away from my house). What has me stumped though is why the generator and ignition started both stopped working. So there must be somethign that knocks them both out. Thats's where I'm at at the moment. Thanks all!

 

[Kuate]

(so negative on one battery, positve on second battery since they are serialed);

Sorry about this here.. for clarification. Both batteries are wired in parallel. When i added the battery charger i had the charger on one battery. It charged for a day and read 'full', however i moved the negative cable from that one battery to the second negative cable battery. It was charging but never went to full. This morning i disconnected all cables and tried to charge each one individually with no success (one wouldn't go [ast 60%). Took the batteries to NAPA and one was bad and the other one was 'almost' bad, they replaced them both under warranty. Now i have two new batteries in the coach, both in a parallel as they should be and same as before i added the battery charger. I added my results to the vimeo video, still no luck on cranking. I was reading another post where someone had similar and it was fixed with two new batteries, not on my end. I read another post were someone was having same issue and they were trying to find the starter relay (on a 1999 American Dream..very close to mine). That's my next attempt. I dont think the other post reported on how they fixed it so ill try to bump it up.

I also think I may have lost my inside lights that run on 12v (the inverter only turns on microwave and AC Outlets) as my kitchen and bathroom lights arent turning on anymore. Thanks all!

 

[NWIP]

FYI

1. Generally the inverter is using the house batteries to supply some items that require 110v. What is powered depends on how it was wired.

2. When using the aux switch you are requesting power from the house batteries for engine start. Depending on amount or state of house batteries may not be enough amps to turn over.

3. Generator is commonly wired to chassis batteries but not always.

Because of the variables it’s a good idea to trace the source of battery power for the generator.

 

[TheLooks]

If you have turned a battery disconnect relay(latching type) to the off position, you will not charge your house batteries on shore power and the lights etc will not work. These systems are not intuitive. There is a one way diode that allows the alternator on the engine to charge the house batteries while traveling, but the converter will not charge the chassis battery(s) while plugged into shore power. If the engine will not turn over, you have to look at the battery for the engine, not the house. Voltage will light up the gauges but you need amps to crank the motor. There should be a switch to (store) the unit, maybe called battery disconnect. There should be a button near the dash called Aux power, which uses the house batteries to boost the chassis(engine) battery to start.

 

[TheLooks]

You have to hold the Aux button in to use it, it will not click or stay on(momentary) contact. This ensures the 2 battery systems are not tied together unless boosting.

 

[Kuate]

Thanks all, yes correct on all stated.

A bit of history...
When I picked up the coach three weeks ago, I went camping and connected to shore to get familiar. Third night I couldn't start the coach, it was dead but it dimmed when trying to crank. I used the AUX Charge button (held it) to start the coach and charge the batteries. I made it home just fine and fired up the generator for two hours to see hot it performed with both AC's one (worked fine). Second night parked at home I noticed I again was losing power and managed start the coach again with AUX Charge. This was the original diagnosis that got me looking at charging the coach batteries with a battery charger/tender...and the rest went downhill after that.

The AUX Charge doesn't fire up the coach anymore even with new chassis batteries. I checked the voltage on the four house/coach batteries and they all showed 6.x volts. For now I'm just focusing on the chassis batteries 2 parallel 12 volts) to get it going again and not having much luck, Generator also doesn't do anything anymore.

I've picked up a few diagnostics tools to help me trace all the wires to try to find where I'm losing connection; they come in tomorrow (few meters and tone tracers). Someone in another forum mentioned a 200amp fuse but I have yet to find that.

Not quite feeling defeated yet the more I'm learning about the coach and troubleshooting (been eyeballing lots of videos and chasing forums). At first it was overwhelming but I think I'm getting close to finding my issue. Thanks ALL!

 

[TheLooks]

The Aux button also actuates a relay, which allows the amps to flow. Not sure if you mentioned it but I would question the quality of the batteries. Have them tested, not just checking voltage.

 

[Kuate]

The Aux button also actuates a relay, which allows the amps to flow. Not sure if you mentioned it but I would question the quality of the batteries. Have them tested, not just checking voltage.

Thanks. I replaced the batteries with two new ones two days ago and have the same result. I’ll try to head in later today to do more troubleshooting

 

[Kuate]

FIXED. It was one of the two for me below

Possibility 1
A stuck Intellisec BCC Relay. (Part 01-00055-00232798). There were two behind the Board by the batteries. I learned how to zap them open and close using a KZEEE KM10 (supplies 12v poles from battery). I disconnect coach and chassis batteries (for safety since I wasnt 100% what I was doing) and then zapped them to closed position. I started it up and it cranked I had read from someone else that posted similar process and believes they may have 'unstuck' the relay by giving it juice. However, not fully convinced this was it....


Possibility 2
User Error/Newness to the American Coach
While I had the BCC relay in front of me with disconnected batteries, I connected a wire toner (two piece gadget that helps you find wires via a tone wand) to the wire that zaps the BCC relay and had my wife find where it goes to the coach. Next to the slide control inside the cabinet was a battery disconnect that read AUX and MAIN (above it was the solar meter). This is where the buttons are to turn those relay on and off manually. It threw me off because everything I read calls these batteries Chassi/Motor, or House/Coach. After it started I then turned off the coach and played with these buttons and I was able to replicate the no crank no start. I may have turned those off while showing the coach to fam (or someone in fam did) because I thought those were related to the solar charging.


Finally, I'm leaning towards possibility 2 being my real issue because there was a key datapoint that kept getting overlooked when I was asking community for help (multiple forums). The coach not cranking, the generator not cranking, and the AUX Start not working anymore (all at the same time) all point to those two AUX and Main disconnect buttons. I'm happy it happened though because I was forced to learn a lot more about my coach than I expected to only three weeks in. I also feel that the battery tenders didn't do anything wrong and worked as expected, I went down a bunny trail because I thought i fried something. But now that I know what I know, the system is not really that complex from a regular vehicle. Still glad it all happened though. l feel better prepared for the road now given three weeks in to having my first motorcoach. Thanks to all the chimed in!