Question Dead B.I.R.D

[Joe Hogan]

Started my most recent trip with a dead chassis battery. Boost was a no go due to bad B.I.R.D relay. Luckily the storage facility has a Jump Box so on my way to the repair station quickly. Diagnosed issue, bad BIRD relay. none in stock. Ordered the part and I continued my trip. The alternator does charge the chassis battery when engine running.
Now at the campsite with a trickle charger on the chassis battery.

Any thoughts on this? Is the BIRD rebuildable? Do not think there is a core charge so I will keep the old part and dissect it for entertainment/education purposes.

 

[NWIP]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. If no core charge I would certainly dissect for educational purposes and might actually get it working. Some relays sense voltage to engage/disengage relay. I would think the BIRD would sense a min voltatage closing relay to allow charging.

That’s the extent of my knowledge ?, if you get more information please share.

 

[VTPete]

You have the small solar panel on the roof dedicated to charging the chassis battery right? Does this mean that a bad module will prevent that charging?
And.. can someone tell me the difference between BIM and BIRD?

 

[RKins]

I have not heard of a "BIRD Relay" but I have heard of the relay that the BIRD usually controls - The Isolater/Combiner Relay. Some people call it the "Big Boy" Relay.
The BIRD, unless it has changed in recent years, monitors the house batteries and when above 13.3v it applies a signal (12V initially to activate the relay and then drops to around 3.5 to hold it on) to the relay which combines the house and chassis battery banks for charging. So was it the isolater/combiner relay or the BIRD that is bad? My relay is still original - I have heard that some have failed but it's pretty rare, unless the new ones are imported junk.
Here is a pic of the I/C Relay (Upper left) - the BIRD is just below it.

 

[Chuggs]

You have the small solar panel on the roof dedicated to charging the chassis battery right? Does this mean that a bad module will prevent that charging?
And.. can someone tell me the difference between BIM and BIRD?

BIM = Precision Circuits
B.I.R.D. = Intellitec

It’s like Coke vs Pepsi...

Precision Circuits calls theirs a Battery Isolation Manager.
Intellitec calls theirs a Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay.

btw...10w of solar, un-regulated, will not charge the batteries. It will merely slow the rate of parasitic discharge. The BIM or BIRD aren’t in anyway associated with this small panel. I very much doubt it could raise the voltage of the chassis battery to a level that would trigger a closure of one of these relays. They normally close when a true charging device...like the converter built into the Inverter is putting out charge...or the Alternator is putting out charge. They have a specific voltage they are looking for to decide when to share with the off side bank.

 

[VTPete]

Thanks @Chuggs. this is getting away from the OP's question, but I'm curious what led to his chassis battery issue. Would the BIRD module failure be the likely root cause?

 

[Joe Hogan]

The BIRD, unless it has changed in recent years, monitors the house batteries and when above 13.3v it applies a signal (12V initially to activate the relay and then drops to around 3.5 to hold it on) to the relay which combines the house and chassis battery banks for charging. So was it the isolater/combiner relay or the BIRD that is bad? My relay is still original - I have heard that some have failed but it's pretty rare, unless the new ones are imported junk.
Here is a pic of the I/C Relay (Upper left) - the BIRD is just below it.

At this point I am not sure if the BIRD or associated Relay is bad. The Tech that checked the circuit only indicated a bad Relay, part was not in stock. When the part is received and installed I'll have a better idea. My also need to address the battery, possible low electrolyte. It is slowly discharging. Not sure if there is a parasitic load or what causes the discharge.

 

[RKins]

It's easy for you to test. With the coach plugged in, you would assume that both battery banks are charging. To check this, use a multimeter to read from ground to each terminal on the big relay. You should read House voltage all the time on one stud and the chassis bank on the other. If you read 13.3+ on each (the same voltage), the BIRD has activated the relay and the charger is charging both banks. Look on the BIRD and find the terminal marked Relay. Remove the wire at the BIRD and re-measure the voltage at the big relay. If the voltage is 13.3+ on one (you've found the house bank) and 12+ on the other, that tells me that both the BIRD and the Relay are working. You should read this same voltage if the coach is not on shore power nor genny.
While on shore power, if you read 13.3+ on the house bank stud and 12+ on the chassis bank stud, that would indicate to me that the relay is bad. You should be able to read 3.4V ish on the relay line of the BIRD once it has triggered the relay on.
It is possible that the house bank is real low, like 12V and while charging the charger can't pull the voltage up to 13.3+V, the BIRD will not trigger the big relay. The voltage must be 13.3+ for a minute before the BIRD triggers the relay on.

 

[JimnLisa]

BIM = Precision Circuits
B.I.R.D. = Intellitec

It’s like Coke vs Pepsi...

Precision Circuits calls theirs a Battery Isolation Manager.
Intellitec calls theirs a Bi-Directional Isolator Relay Delay.

btw...10w of solar, un-regulated, will not charge the batteries. It will merely slow the rate of parasitic discharge. The BIM or BIRD aren’t in anyway associated with this small panel. I very much doubt it could raise the voltage of the chassis battery to a level that would trigger a closure of one of these relays. They normally close when a true charging device...like the converter built into the Inverter is putting out charge...or the Alternator is putting out charge. They have a specific voltage they are looking for to decide when to share with the off side bank.

We seem to have a BIRD? issue, as the house batteries are completely drained overnight when the isolation switch is activated to disconnect the batteries. -This does not happen if the switch is left in connect(run) mode. The chassis battery has no such problem. If I jumpstart the genset, or plug into external power, the house batteries charge back up.
Any thoughts or test methods appreciated.
Thanks!
2002 Airstream Land Yacht 30 workhorse

 

[Chuggs]

We seem to have a BIRD? issue, as the house batteries are completely drained overnight when the isolation switch is activated to disconnect the batteries. -This does not happen if the switch is left in connect(run) mode. The chassis battery has no such problem. If I jumpstart the genset, or plug into external power, the house batteries charge back up.
Any thoughts or test methods appreciated.
Thanks!
2002 Airstream Land Yacht 30 workhorse

The BIRD will only affect the House system if you are Driving. The Alternator would be able to charge the Chassis and then the House in this situation, If you are Parked...the Bird only shares the HOUSE charging system with the Chassis. If your Chassis isn't the issue...we have to move on to what the problem is with the HOUSE.

If you have access to a clamp meter...(capable of measuring DC amps by clamping a loop around a wire) I would identify the different cables connected to the House battery bank. On my coach...I have a Positive going to the Inverter, a Positive going to the HOUSE...those actually are directed to two catastrophic fuses mounted on the rear wall of my battery bay. Then there is the Bi-directional Isolator Line...which goes to the Bird. Measure current passing thru these three cables. If you see something that looks suspiciously high...try to identify the drain. Bay lights, etc... might be left on.

If you don't see anything...then I would switch my focus from the drains...to the charging system....and batteries. Poorly serviced batteries, could result in poor storage potential. Factors to consider, AGE of the batteries, cleanliness of contacts, water level, cycles(life use), sulphation due to leaving them at low state of charge, and not routinely getting them to a FULL charge, incorrect charge parameters...or faulty battery temperature sensor causing the unit to skew the settings incorrectly due to false reading.

While that is a good place to start...I'm sure I left out something.

Your charging system should allow you to trouble shoot. If you know how to get it to rebuild...and go into absorb for the required time (see manual based on size of battery bank)...and you don't have any undue drain. If the voltage drops overnight...the batteries are more than likely shot. But do everything possible to insure that your charger is set and working properly,. If you buy new batteries...and didn't make sure the charging system is set properly...then they will suffer the same fate.

If you are leaving the coach unplugged...then you either need to setup a system to disconnect the bank... IE a Heavy Duty switch to interrupt POS line to the INVERTER and a Heavy Duty switch to interrupt ALL NEG lines to the Battery Bank. You would start by turning OFF the Inverter Positive...then turning OFF the House NEGATIVES. When reinstating...turn ON the House NEGATIVES, followed by turning ON the Inverter POS.

The salesman switch opens a relay behind the cord real. If you locate the relay, or the Handout in your Black Bag...you will see the identification off "Constant Battery Power" vs Disconnect Battery Power". The relay ONLY disconnects the distribution to the DISCONNECT items. It does not shut off everything that drains your batteries. The Constant Battery Power items will be continuously fed as long as they have a complete circuit to the House Bank. If you intend to shut then off...you will need to modify your coach.

I now see you have a different Chassis...so what I was talking about may or may not be useful. I would have to know how your coach is wired. Most Newmars are wiring similar to mine... The switch for the POS to the Inverter is a Magnum Energy thing. The MS2812 Inverter/Charger can fry the auto gen start circuitry if the ground is interrupted without removing the POS cable to the inverter first. The network will try to establish an alternate route to ground thru the sensitive circuitry. You may only need to add a switch to the negatives to remove all drains while stored.

You may also have a separate Inverter or no Inverter... and a separate Charger. The charger may or may not be user programmable to the type of batteries you have. I'm sorry I can't be more specific on the system you have on your Workhorse Chassis.

 

[JimnLisa]

The BIRD will only affect the House system if you are Driving. The Alternator would be able to charge the Chassis and then the House in this situation, If you are Parked...the Bird only shares the HOUSE charging system with the Chassis. If your Chassis isn't the issue...we have to move on to what the problem is with the HOUSE.

If you have access to a clamp meter...(capable of measuring DC amps by clamping a loop around a wire) I would identify the different cables connected to the House battery bank. On my coach...I have a Positive going to the Inverter, a Positive going to the HOUSE...those actually are directed to two catastrophic fuses mounted on the rear wall of my battery bay. Then there is the Bi-directional Isolator Line...which goes to the Bird. Measure current passing thru these three cables. If you see something that looks suspiciously high...try to identify the drain. Bay lights, etc... might be left on.

If you don't see anything...then I would switch my focus from the drains...to the charging system....and batteries. Poorly serviced batteries, could result in poor storage potential. Factors to consider, AGE of the batteries, cleanliness of contacts, water level, cycles(life use), sulphation due to leaving them at low state of charge, and not routinely getting them to a FULL charge, incorrect charge parameters...or faulty battery temperature sensor causing the unit to skew the settings incorrectly due to false reading.

While that is a good place to start...I'm sure I left out something.

Your charging system should allow you to trouble shoot. If you know how to get it to rebuild...and go into absorb for the required time (see manual based on size of battery bank)...and you don't have any undue drain. If the voltage drops overnight...the batteries are more than likely shot. But do everything possible to insure that your charger is set and working properly,. If you buy new batteries...and didn't make sure the charging system is set properly...then they will suffer the same fate.

If you are leaving the coach unplugged...then you either need to setup a system to disconnect the bank... IE a Heavy Duty switch to interrupt POS line to the INVERTER and a Heavy Duty switch to interrupt ALL NEG lines to the Battery Bank. You would start by turning OFF the Inverter Positive...then turning OFF the House NEGATIVES. When reinstating...turn ON the House NEGATIVES, followed by turning ON the Inverter POS.

The salesman switch opens a relay behind the cord real. If you locate the relay, or the Handout in your Black Bag...you will see the identification off "Constant Battery Power" vs Disconnect Battery Power". The relay ONLY disconnects the distribution to the DISCONNECT items. It does not shut off everything that drains your batteries. The Constant Battery Power items will be continuously fed as long as they have a complete circuit to the House Bank. If you intend to shut then off...you will need to modify your coach.

I now see you have a different Chassis...so what I was talking about may or may not be useful. I would have to know how your coach is wired. Most Newmars are wiring similar to mine... The switch for the POS to the Inverter is a Magnum Energy thing. The MS2812 Inverter/Charger can fry the auto gen start circuitry if the ground is interrupted without removing the POS cable to the inverter first. The network will try to establish an alternate route to ground thru the sensitive circuitry. You may only need to add a switch to the negatives to remove all drains while stored.

You may also have a separate Inverter or no Inverter... and a separate Charger. The charger may or may not be user programmable to the type of batteries you have. I'm sorry I can't be more specific on the system you have on your Workhorse Chassis.

Thank you very much for taking time with great detail.
The batteries are new. When I hit the isolation switches, is when the house drops dead overnight. Chassis is fine.