Lithium vs AGM

[brianconn]

I have a 2017 Zion with the EcoTrek lithium power system. The entire electrical system went kaput a week ago and the mobile RV service tech told me the electronics in the batteries have failed and won't tell the generator or shore power to send current to it so it never charges. He is recommending replacing the batteries with AGM batteries to save money and that they will last longer than a set of lithium batteries. He says I'll need 3 AGM to replace 2 lithium and the only downside is that they take longer to charge.

I don't relish the idea of spending $4 grand to replace the batteries but also don't want to spend money to downgrade to something I'll hate for years to come. Oh, one other thing is that he can't mount the AGM batteries under the chassis so will have to take up the under-sink cabinet.

Any thoughts on this? Is he right or should I spend the money and replace them with new originals?
Thanks
Brian

 

[Beemingbill]

Brian,
I bought a new Roadtrek Zion in Feb. and it now has 7500 miles on it. On our last trip one of the lithium batteries went bad and at the same time the shorepower converter quit working. That left us without AC and we had to spend the last two nights of our trip in motels because of the heat. I have a friend that bought a new Roadtrek Play and the lithium batteries went bad, burned up the alternator and nearly started a fire. It took his dealer 6 months to get the batteries replaced as no one had any of his type and style in stock and they were on back order. I would never buy an RV with Lithium batteries again. I have had 10 previous campers and one previous class B with Lead acid batteries and never had a minutes trouble with them. You can buy replacement AGM batteries at any auto parts store at 20% of the cost of lithium. I have had so much trouble with both the Roadtrek and the Dodge Promaster. It has been back to the Dodge dealer 5 times for two problems that they can't fix and back to the Roadtrek dealer 3 times for 6 different problems.
We are very disappointed after spending $125,000 and not being able to take one trip without several problems.
My dream of owning a new class B has turned into a nightmare. Just my 2 cents worth that I had to get off my chest.

 

[DHudson]

I have a 2017 Zion with the EcoTrek lithium power system. The entire electrical system went kaput a week ago and the mobile RV service tech told me the electronics in the batteries have failed and won't tell the generator or shore power to send current to it so it never charges. He is recommending replacing the batteries with AGM batteries to save money and that they will last longer than a set of lithium batteries. He says I'll need 3 AGM to replace 2 lithium and the only downside is that they take longer to charge.

I don't relish the idea of spending $4 grand to replace the batteries but also don't want to spend money to downgrade to something I'll hate for years to come. Oh, one other thing is that he can't mount the AGM batteries under the chassis so will have to take up the under-sink cabinet.

Any thoughts on this? Is he right or should I spend the money and replace them with new originals?
Thanks
Brian

I don't know how handy your with tools, but if the electronics in the batteries have failed you might take them apart and see if you can find and replace the BMS. My son id looking into build some high quality, more affordable lithium batteries to sell.

Lithium-ion Battery Management System (BMS) – A Detailed Coverage - HLC Battery

The BMS or battery management system is a crucial and intelligent feature of a lithium-ion battery pack mainly responsible for advanced management and monitoring. Put merely, BMS is the brains behind the lithium-ion battery and plays a crucial role in its charge rates, performance, safety, and...

www.1cbattery.com

 

[Bob K4TAX]

I have pondered the Lithium vs. AGM topic for some time. Being an electronics engineer, I know about semiconductor failures. The BMS contained in the Lithium battery is an electronic control system using semiconductors. I can just imagine a failed semiconductor turning a very expensive Lithium battery into a heavy door stop.

I've not seen any evidence whereby the BMS can be repaired or replaced for a given battery. Given the infant mortality of electronics, I believe it safer and more economical to go the AGM route.

Agreed there are MANY benefits to using Lithium batteries. Rapid charge, deeper discharge without damage, current limiting, etc.

Bob

 

[Beemingbill]

I have a 2017 Zion with the EcoTrek lithium power system. The entire electrical system went kaput a week ago and the mobile RV service tech told me the electronics in the batteries have failed and won't tell the generator or shore power to send current to it so it never charges. He is recommending replacing the batteries with AGM batteries to save money and that they will last longer than a set of lithium batteries. He says I'll need 3 AGM to replace 2 lithium and the only downside is that they take longer to charge.

I don't relish the idea of spending $4 grand to replace the batteries but also don't want to spend money to downgrade to something I'll hate for years to come. Oh, one other thing is that he can't mount the AGM batteries under the chassis so will have to take up the under-sink cabinet.

Any thoughts on this? Is he right or should I spend the money and replace them with new originals?
Thanks
Brian

Brian,
I bought a new Roadtrek Zion in Feb. and it now has 7500 miles on it. On our last trip one of the lithium batteries went bad and at the same time the shorepower converter quit working. That left us without AC and we had to spend the last two nights of our trip in motels because of the heat. I have a friend that bought a new Roadtrek Play and the lithium batteries went bad, burned up the alternator and nearly started a fire. It took his dealer 6 months to get the batteries replaced as no one had any of his type and style in stock and they were on back order. I would never buy an RV with Lithium batteries again. I have had 10 previous campers and one previous class B with Lead acid batteries and never had a minutes trouble with them. You can buy replacement AGM batteries at any auto parts store at 20% of the cost of lithium. I have had so much trouble with both the Roadtrek and the Dodge Promaster. It has been back to the Dodge dealer 5 times for two problems that they can't fix and back to the Roadtrek dealer 3 times for 6 different problems.
We are very disappointed after spending $125,000 and not being able to take one trip without several problems.
My dream of owning a new class B has turned into a nightmare. Just my 2 cents worth that I had to get off my chest.

 

[Rich W.]

I have pondered the Lithium vs. AGM topic for some time. Being an electronics engineer, I know about semiconductor failures. The BMS contained in the Lithium battery is an electronic control system using semiconductors. I can just imagine a failed semiconductor turning a very expensive Lithium battery into a heavy door stop.

I've not seen any evidence whereby the BMS can be repaired or replaced for a given battery. Given the infant mortality of electronics, I believe it safer and more economical to go the AGM route.

Agreed there are MANY benefits to using Lithium batteries. Rapid charge, deeper discharge without damage, current limiting, etc.

Bob

I‘ve used lithiums in my Polaris Ranger EV and an RV solar installation that would run an air conditioner for 8 hours after dark. But always with automotive lithium battery cells/modules (Nissan Leaf modules) using external charge and control electronics. I agree with Bob - I wouldn’t want to invest in lithium batteries that rely on internal electronics.

That said, if I did own a lithium battery bank with internal electronics that “went bad” outside of warranty, I’d take the thing apart and try to salvage the cells. From what I’ve seen, they are all 2.2 volts and just arranged in different configurations for varying applications.

Looking at the Ecotrek manual, my guess would be that while the BMS may have failed, it also might have protected your lithium cells/modules.

https://www.roadtrek.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/HOWTO-EcoTrek-Battery-Guide-April-24-2017.pdf

Lithium batteries have a very long service life when cared for properly and “electronics in the batteries have failed” is to vague to use as a basis for the decision to downgrade the system to AGM batteries. I would recommended more diagnostics and research before condemning the battery bank. You may already have this info, but if not, start with this:

http://home.roadtreking.ca/Manuals/FBgroup/Ecotrek%20Lithium%20Battery%20Reset.pdf

 

[Bob K4TAX]

Agreed there are MANY benefits to using Lithium batteries. Rapid charge, deeper discharge, current limiting, etc.

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

If you replace with Lithium, do your research on the battery vendors. Every battery, its electronics and physical configuration is not the same.

 

[brianconn]

Brian,
I bought a new Roadtrek Zion in Feb. and it now has 7500 miles on it. On our last trip one of the lithium batteries went bad and at the same time the shorepower converter quit working. That left us without AC and we had to spend the last two nights of our trip in motels because of the heat. I have a friend that bought a new Roadtrek Play and the lithium batteries went bad, burned up the alternator and nearly started a fire. It took his dealer 6 months to get the batteries replaced as no one had any of his type and style in stock and they were on back order. I would never buy an RV with Lithium batteries again. I have had 10 previous campers and one previous class B with Lead acid batteries and never had a minutes trouble with them. You can buy replacement AGM batteries at any auto parts store at 20% of the cost of lithium. I have had so much trouble with both the Roadtrek and the Dodge Promaster. It has been back to the Dodge dealer 5 times for two problems that they can't fix and back to the Roadtrek dealer 3 times for 6 different problems.
We are very disappointed after spending $125,000 and not being able to take one trip without several problems.
My dream of owning a new class B has turned into a nightmare. Just my 2 cents worth that I had to get off my chest.

Ugh! - sorry to hear that Bill. Your tale has definitely got me leaning towards replacing with AGM batteries. Good luck!
Brian

 

[brianconn]

I don't know how handy your with tools, but if the electronics in the batteries have failed you might take them apart and see if you can find and replace the BMS. My son id looking into build some high quality, more affordable lithium batteries to sell.

Lithium-ion Battery Management System (BMS) – A Detailed Coverage - HLC Battery

The BMS or battery management system is a crucial and intelligent feature of a lithium-ion battery pack mainly responsible for advanced management and monitoring. Put merely, BMS is the brains behind the lithium-ion battery and plays a crucial role in its charge rates, performance, safety, and...

www.1cbattery.com

I've been accused of not knowing my limitations many times, but sticking a screwdriver into a 30 amp box of power might even make me hesitate. I'll leave that one to the pros. Can't wait to see your son's batteries on the market.
Brian

 

[brianconn]

I have pondered the Lithium vs. AGM topic for some time. Being an electronics engineer, I know about semiconductor failures. The BMS contained in the Lithium battery is an electronic control system using semiconductors. I can just imagine a failed semiconductor turning a very expensive Lithium battery into a heavy door stop.

I've not seen any evidence whereby the BMS can be repaired or replaced for a given battery. Given the infant mortality of electronics, I believe it safer and more economical to go the AGM route.

Agreed there are MANY benefits to using Lithium batteries. Rapid charge, deeper discharge without damage, current limiting, etc.

Bob

Thanks Bob! I think I'll take your advice.
Brian

 

[brianconn]

I‘ve used lithiums in my Polaris Ranger EV and an RV solar installation that would run an air conditioner for 8 hours after dark. But always with automotive lithium battery cells/modules (Nissan Leaf modules) using external charge and control electronics. I agree with Bob - I wouldn’t want to invest in lithium batteries that rely on internal electronics.

That said, if I did own a lithium battery bank with internal electronics that “went bad” outside of warranty, I’d take the thing apart and try to salvage the cells. From what I’ve seen, they are all 2.2 volts and just arranged in different configurations for varying applications.

Looking at the Ecotrek manual, my guess would be that while the BMS may have failed, it also might have protected your lithium cells/modules.

https://www.roadtrek.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/HOWTO-EcoTrek-Battery-Guide-April-24-2017.pdf

Lithium batteries have a very long service life when cared for properly and “electronics in the batteries have failed” is to vague to use as a basis for the decision to downgrade the system to AGM batteries. I would recommended more diagnostics and research before condemning the battery bank. You may already have this info, but if not, start with this:

http://home.roadtreking.ca/Manuals/FBgroup/Ecotrek%20Lithium%20Battery%20Reset.pdf

Thanks for the links Rich. I'll check them out

 

[Beemingbill]

Brian,
I bought a new Roadtrek Zion in Feb. and it now has 7500 miles on it. On our last trip one of the lithium batteries went bad and at the same time the shorepower converter quit working. That left us without AC and we had to spend the last two nights of our trip in motels because of the heat. I have a friend that bought a new Roadtrek Play and the lithium batteries went bad, burned up the alternator and nearly started a fire. It took his dealer 6 months to get the batteries replaced as no one had any of his type and style in stock and they were on back order. I would never buy an RV with Lithium batteries again. I have had 10 previous campers and one previous class B with Lead acid batteries and never had a minutes trouble with them. You can buy replacement AGM batteries at any auto parts store at 20% of the cost of lithium. I have had so much trouble with both the Roadtrek and the Dodge Promaster. It has been back to the Dodge dealer 5 times for two problems that they can't fix and back to the Roadtrek dealer 3 times for 6 different problems.
We are very disappointed after spending $125,000 and not being able to take one trip without several problems.
My dream of owning a new class B has turned into a nightmare. Just my 2 cents worth that I had to get off my chest.

Finely got the service dept. to work on my 21 Zion after over 30 days setting there. It seems that the number 1 battery went dead and would not turn back on even though the number 2 battery was still working. How does that happen? They are always both turned on at the same time but one goes dead and the other works normally! Some how they got it working again ( I need to find out how to do this myself), but the converter part of the inverter needs replaced and it has taken a week for the supplier to find and ship a new part. This is the 6th problem I have had to take it back to the dealer to get fixed. Along with the problems I have had with the Promaster itself. Needless to say I am not a fan of Roadtrek

 

[siggy]

I have pondered the Lithium vs. AGM topic for some time. Being an electronics engineer, I know about semiconductor failures. The BMS contained in the Lithium battery is an electronic control system using semiconductors. I can just imagine a failed semiconductor turning a very expensive Lithium battery into a heavy door stop.

I've not seen any evidence whereby the BMS can be repaired or replaced for a given battery. Given the infant mortality of electronics, I believe it safer and more economical to go the AGM route.

Agreed there are MANY benefits to using Lithium batteries. Rapid charge, deeper discharge without damage, current limiting, etc.

Bob

Hi Im not an engineer by any means, but I did run into a lithium battery that I was contemplating buying its made by AOLithium. Its been said that this battery is repairable. They actually show the insides on U tube. Interested in your opinion.

 

[Bob K4TAX]

Simple ---- more parts = higher percentage of failure. Of course, many pieces of medical equipment use Lithium batteries. They are operated by non-technical people and are expected to work when needed and not fail when pushed to the limits. Most medical applications have routine maintenance and inspections of equipment by qualified personnel or companies. I find this to be not necessarily so of RVs, etc. Many cell phones use Lithium technology but those go obsolete, usually before one can get them out of the box and home. I refer to the "cell phone model of the day".

Since we rarely boondock but do carry a suitable generator, I've found no reason to invest in Lithium technology for camping. A good quality AGM does the job for us, and the heavier weight of AGM vs. Lithium is not an issue. As to the longevity of AGM vs. Lithium, I seem to think both are about the same. Thus it comes down to $$/year of cost. Others of course may and will disagree.

I can always tell "mama" that I'm going to buy a new $150 battery for the trailer and she says "OK". If I said I'm going to buy a $750 battery I would get lots of ............. well you know. Not going there.

Bob