TV max tow > TT GVWR - Rule or Guideline?

[Al_Bear]

[NOTE: I also posted this thread under Toy Haulers, TravlelTrailers, etc./Tow Vehicles. Why are there two Tow Vehicles forums on this site? It seems to me that this one, under Motorhomes, should only consider vehicles to be towed by a Motorhome, and it should not be called "Tow Vehicles" but rather "Vehicles to be towed" or "Dolly towing" or whatever. I add this comment just so you all know that I'm not posting this in two places for no good reason.]

Here's a quote from TrailerSafetyWeek.com: "Do not use a tow vehicle with a max tow rating of less than the GVWR of your trailer".

Does anybody know if this is a guideline or a requirement? I searched the California DMV website and couldn't find it there. Is it something required by insurance companies? I'm going to call mine (AAA) about this after the holiday.

Our new-to-us TT has a dry weight of 4520 and we don't bring along any heavy toys. Based on my experience with our prior trailers, I estimate a total TT real-world weight of 4800 for trips without fresh water, or 5200 in the unlikely event that we do carry fresh water. In either case, we will be well under the 7000 max tow of the our 2019 Colorado. (And yes, for those who know that "max tow" is just an approximation, or maybe just marketing b.s., the Colorado will be about 300 lbs. under max payload/GVWR, even with full fresh water in the TT, which brings the actual measured tongue weight to 620.)

The problem is that the TT sticker shows 7400 as the trailer GVWR.

So, if the quote is just a guideline, I would be inclined to ignore it. If it's a regulation, that's something else. We love the trailer--so we would have to get a bigger TV.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

I don't think you will find many legal references to GCVW and GWV as they pertain to RVs, though some states may have them. What you should be more concerned about is (a) safety and (b) liability. Safety speaks for itself insofar as the driver and his passengers are concerned. Liability speaks to the consequences of an accident and you can be sure a sharp "ambulance chaser" will be looking closely for anything that may have contributed to his/her clients death, injury and/or property damage.

With regard to the vehicle you are referencing, I assume you are talking about what is generally called a "TV" (tow vehicle) rather that a "Toad," a term usually reserved for a vehicle towed behind a motorhome.

TJ

 

[Al_Bear]

Oh, so that's what a TOAD is!
Thanks. I probably can't edit the name of a thread, so I'll have to re-post.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

Oh, so that's what a TOAD is!
Thanks. I probably can't edit the name of a thread, so I'll have to re-post.

No, you are fine right here. And, yes, I think you can edit the thread name If you want.

EDIT: I see you have already figured out the edit function. Quick learner.

TJ

 

[Al_Bear]

Some websites don't allow you to edit the subject line. Glad to see that this one does.

 

[Gizmo]

When I was new. to RVing, I listened to the truck dealer and the RV dealer than my truck had a towing capacity of. 12,500 and the RV. had GVWR. of 11,999 and I. was good to go. What I didn't understand was that towing capacity is what the truck weights loaded ready camp subtracted from the GCWR. Then I was told on the forums that if I was close to GVWR I was way over the payload. of the truck. I argue that how could I be if was under what the manufacture says I can tow. They said to bring it to a CAT scale and check weights so I did just to prove. them wrong. The scale doesn't. lie. - I was over my GVWR, Axle Ratings, and most dangerous I was over. my rear tire weight ratings. The. RV weight came in at 11760 pounds so I was under the 11,999 pound RV GVWR but I was over the GCWR of the truck. I ended up with 1 ton and well under all ratings.

 

[Al_Bear]

After reading a bunch of forums that included rv'ers, commercial license holders, and even a lawyer or two, (for example, RV.Net Open Roads Forum: Is being a little over GVWR no worse than doing 60 in a 55?), I've come to the conclusion that there is no regulatory reality whatsoever behind the quotation in my original post, where I cited TrailerSafetyWeek.com as saying "Do not use a tow vehicle with a max tow rating of less than the GVWR of your trailer". No need for me personally to contact dmv or my insurer or pester anyone else about it.

Regulatory questions aside, the admonition does not make any sense. The GVWR of a trailer does not indicate what the trailer actually weighs, which is what really matters. If my trailer weighs 5000, my TV needs to be able to handle 5000, not the 7400 GVWR on the sticker for the trailer. Of course, you don't want to overload the trailer itself, but that doesn't have anything to do with the TV capacity.

In case you're wondering why a TT this light would have a GVWR that high, all I can guess is that they might have used the same axles and chassis for models that had slide-outs, which would therefore be heavier. Mine doesn't have slide-outs. Plus it's a Komfort with AlumaKage - an aluminum frame for the body on a steel chassis, which is probably lighter than a wooden frame.

The admonition should have said: "Do not exceed the GVWR for your tow vehicle. Do not exceed the GVWR for your trailer. And make sure that their actual weights when added together do not exceed the GCWR for your tow vehicle." Not as pithy, but accurate.

 

[Gizmo]

I would not get your legal advice from a forum. I sat down with the accident attorney for an hour and he already knew about GVWR and used the example of a 3/4 ton truck pulling a 5er and how many baby boomers. are exceeding the manufacture specs and how that is used on a civil lawsuit. Here is a video I wish everyone would watch and I think at least one trip to the scales should be required. You would be surprised how far off those manufactured RV specs are off.

My Class

Education site for RV Safety and Education Foundation

rvacademy.com

 

[Gizmo]

My Airstream had a heavy hitch it was 17% of the actual weight of the trailer where most fall between 12 and 15%. The Airstream storage was mostly in front of the wheels so a lot of the weight loaded went to the hitch weight. Say your trailer weighs in at 6000 pounds and you have a 15% tongue weight or 900 pounds on the back of your truck. Now add in 100 pounds for the hitch, 400 pounds for people in the truck, and another 100 pounds of other stuff and truck add-ons. Now you need about 1500 pounds or more on the yellow sticker on your door jam to stay within your truck's GVWR. When we had pull behinds we loaded between 1500 and 1800 pounds and if I was to guess I would guess less than 1000 pounds.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

I would not get your legal advice from a forum. I sat down with the accident attorney for an hour and he already knew about GVWR and used the example of a 3/4 ton truck pulling a 5er and how many baby boomers. are exceeding the manufacture specs and how that is used on a civil lawsuit. Here is a video I wish everyone would watch and I think at least one trip to the scales should be required. You would be surprised how far off those manufactured RV specs are off.

My Class

Education site for RV Safety and Education Foundation

rvacademy.com

Excellent video!

TJ

 

["EZ"]

I would not get your legal advice from a forum. I sat down with the accident attorney for an hour and he already knew about GVWR and used the example of a 3/4 ton truck pulling a 5er and how many baby boomers. are exceeding the manufacture specs and how that is used on a civil lawsuit. Here is a video I wish everyone would watch and I think at least one trip to the scales should be required. You would be surprised how far off those manufactured RV specs are off.

My Class

Education site for RV Safety and Education Foundation

rvacademy.com

One thing to keep in mind when talking to the "experts" at the RV dealership..............they want to sell you the biggest most expensive RV they can. So when the customer asks "can I tow this with the 2500 truck I have now or will I have to buy a 3500?" The answer will ALWAYS be YES! The 2500 will do just fine. They don't want you buying a less expensive RV because you have to budget for a larger truck as well. It's in their best interest to tell you your 2500 is fine. This is why we have so many people out here on the road pulling these HUGE 5th wheel campers and toy haulers with their 3/4 ton trucks rather than the 1 ton truck they really need. The average customer doesn't know diddly squat about tow weights or CVWR or GCWR or any of that "technical" stuff so they just ask the RV salesman and go with his answer.

 

["EZ"]

That was an EXCELLENT video. Every RV buyer should watch it.

 

[Al_Bear]

EZ, it's scary to think that people are just taking the word of the RV salesman about this.

One thing that surprised me in the video was the finding that 51% of TT owners exceed the trailer's GVWR. In view of that, I would say that prospective buyers should start with estimating how much CARGO/STUFF they want to take along. The TT's cargo carrying capacity is on a sticker too. If you don't respect that, you can't make up for it with a bigger truck.

I wonder what people are bringing that weighs so much. My Komfort has 2800 pounds of capacity (7400 GVWR minus 4600 dry) and it's not a toy hauler. What could I possibly bring to go over that? 2800 pounds is 80 cases of wine! Maybe some TT's don't have enough cargo capacity to start with. Fresh water might be 400 lbs. or more. Then you might have four bicycles, a heavy screen-house or two, two double kayaks on the back, waders for fishing, firewood (bad idea: burn where you buy!), a propane fire-pit and extra propane tank, outdoor tables and chairs, canned foods, beverages, outdoor stove and barbecue... what else?

We pack really light. No bikes, at least not right now--maybe when the grandkids are old enough to come along that might change. No fresh water (usually), no soda, not much beer, lots of food but not much canned goods. Lightweight clothing, nylon and poly, down comforter--we're ex-backpackers. Lightweight outdoor tables and chairs go in the TV, screen house too. Lynx Levellers instead of chunks of wood. But what if you need more stuff and the RV salesman is not selling you a TT that will carry it? He would rather dazzle you with those nifty slide-outs.

Thanks for you input, everyone.

 

["EZ"]

EZ, it's scary to think that people are just taking the word of the RV salesman about this.

One thing that surprised me in the video was the finding that 51% of TT owners exceed the trailer's GVWR. In view of that, I would say that prospective buyers should start with estimating how much CARGO/STUFF they want to take along. The TT's cargo carrying capacity is on a sticker too. If you don't respect that, you can't make up for it with a bigger truck.

I wonder what people are bringing that weighs so much. My Komfort has 2800 pounds of capacity (7400 GVWR minus 4600 dry) and it's not a toy hauler. What could I possibly bring to go over that? 2800 pounds is 80 cases of wine! Maybe some TT's don't have enough cargo capacity to start with. Fresh water might be 400 lbs. or more. Then you might have four bicycles, a heavy screen-house or two, two double kayaks on the back, waders for fishing, firewood (bad idea: burn where you buy!), a propane fire-pit and extra propane tank, outdoor tables and chairs, canned foods, beverages, outdoor stove and barbecue... what else?

We pack really light. No bikes, at least not right now--maybe when the grandkids are old enough to come along that might change. No fresh water (usually), no soda, not much beer, lots of food but not much canned goods. Lightweight clothing, nylon and poly, down comforter--we're ex-backpackers. Lightweight outdoor tables and chairs go in the TV, screen house too. Lynx Levellers instead of chunks of wood. But what if you need more stuff and the RV salesman is not selling you a TT that will carry it? He would rather dazzle you with those nifty slide-outs.

Thanks for you input, everyone.

I'm not sure how much all the stuff I have in the basement of my 40' diesel pusher but it's a bunch. I've got EVERYTHING I might need, I think. They give you a LOT of room under these coaches so it's EZ to overload one I think. I need to weigh mine just to get an idea of where I'm at weight wise.

 

[Al_Bear]

I just noticed an error in my calculation of percent of capacity (GCWR) for my new TT. I counted tongue weight twice: in the weight for the TV and again in the weight for the TT. That correction brings the total down down to 9700. Divided by 12,000 gives 81% rather than 86%. Given that we're 55-60 mph'ers when towing, I think we'll be fine. (In fact, 55 is the speed limit when towing in California.)

The correct way to do the calculations is to:
1. First compare actual to GVWR for the TV INCLUDING tongue weight.
2. Then compare actual to GVWR for the TT also including tongue weight, that is not subtracting it, because it's a bad idea to think tongue weight gives you more capacity in that way.
3. Then add the two actual weights together and compare the total to GCWR, but making sure that your actual weight for the TV DOES NOT INCLUDE tongue weight at that point in the calculation. Or, if you prefer, leave tongue weight in the actual for the TV but subtract it from the actual for the TT.

 

[Gizmo]

Pencil weighing is fine but it can really far off. A 10,000 trailer could have a 10% tongue or 1000 pounds or like my Airstream, that same 10,000 pounds RV could have a 1700 pound tongue weight. That difference of needing a 1/2 ton with 2 1/2 hitch to need at least a 3/4 ton and need a minimum of 3" hitch which by the way hard to find. I just weighted my Class A yesterday and to my surprise, my UVW is 30,279 and I weighed in at 33,240 or 2,961 pounds of stuff in RV, and if guess I would have said less than 2,000 pounds. The GVWR is 37,500 so not a problem yet but it seems to gain every year.

 

[Al_Bear]

I use a tongue weight scales from Sherline. That way you can observe the effect of your loading choices, such as whether to bring fresh water. A fresh water tank in front of the axles will increase tongue weight when loaded, but decrease it if it's behind. That's obvious, but only a tongue weight scale will show you by how much.

 

[pigpigsparadise]

One thing to keep in mind when talking to the "experts" at the RV dealership..............they want to sell you the biggest most expensive RV they can. So when the customer asks "can I tow this with the 2500 truck I have now or will I have to buy a 3500?" The answer will ALWAYS be YES! The 2500 will do just fine. They don't want you buying a less expensive RV because you have to budget for a larger truck as well. It's in their best interest to tell you your 2500 is fine. This is why we have so many people out here on the road pulling these HUGE 5th wheel campers and toy haulers with their 3/4 ton trucks rather than the 1 ton truck they really need. The average customer doesn't know diddly squat about tow weights or CVWR or GCWR or any of that "technical" stuff so they just ask the RV salesman and go with his answer.

Truth.

 

[lee64]

I had the same issue, I had a Ram 2500 diesel and purchased a 5th wheel. I did not know any better but when I purchased a 5th wheel the dealer said I would be fine and I had plenty of truck. He even pointed to a RV trailer and said you would not be able to handle that one, this trailer would be fine, I never paid much attention because I was excited to buy and did not realize I was overweight until a few years later when I started watching YouTube videos on traveling to different states.

I started calculating and found I was about 300 lbs over payload with the 5th wheel hitch installed by the dealer before passengers and camping equipment was included in the calculated weight. I talked to the RV dealer and he acted surprised and had no idea. I at least brought it to his attention in person. I knew it was on me. but wanted to see his reaction.
The dealer even mentioned he just sold a heavier camper to someone who had a truck my size. I was very disappointed in my self because I always do my homework before buying anything, I labeled it as a lessoned learned.
Instead of losing money trading in my camper my truck held a good value and I was able to purchase a 3500 srw. Long story short I do not trust dealers anymore.

I found a few good spreadsheets on the internet that helped me., some can be overwhelming. There is also some good info on Youtube, Try searching truck payload capacity.
The truck drivers side door jamb will have the payload and all other values after build. The sticker payload will usually be lower than the truck manufacture payload chart because of extras put on the truck. The 2500 was my 1st HD truck , I even found that the gas engines for the size of trucks have higher payloads because of the weight of the diesel engines.

The truck dealer should also be able to help you, I found out the commercial division of the dealership had a worksheet they can fill out to determine your payload with the camper. You will need to provide the camper values. You will also need to add the weight of the hitch to the payload to get the correct results.

 

["EZ"]

The 5th wheel dealer will almost ALWAYS tell you your current truck is fine. If he admits your truck won't do the job it cuts into how much RV he can sell you.