Weight Distribution and Sway Control -Obsolete for a Self Propelled Trailers?

[turbopilot]

The failure in this thread is relying on AI to offer real results, when it relies on published sales literature for it's argument.

And humans never do this, right?

 

[Kevin D Pem]

And humans never do this, right?

Humans do! However AI has of yet failed to include true reasoning. Those humans that are limited in reasoning default to AI for their path forward.

I do ask AI to help troubleshoot systems! However,using AI as anything other than a tool to offer suggestions in the process is foolishness.

That is why using AI on a forum to offer opinions, and prove sales literature as an acceptable practice, diminishes the value of said forum. Hopefully that practice will be banned in the future.

For the record. I use AI. I am aware of it's limitations. I can reason when it is used to push an agenda, and I find it disgusting. My guess is I'm not alone!

 

[redbaron]

Kevin is right. Using AI on forums causes self validation by the AI, confuses those that don’t understand AI, and adds no value to the typical discussions.

I too use AI very heavily. I have a significant investment in my privately owned AI farms with multiple various LLMs and use cases.

Most people do not truly understand AI, and treat it like a conversation or chat. For those that do that my recommendation is to treat each interaction as a web search and ask for the reference material and then read and research it your self.

 

[turbopilot]

Hopefully that practice will be banned in the future.

Impossible to do. I use AI on the forum "fully exposed" as AI. Others will plagiarize AI, posting content as their own words. That is when it gets off the rails. I try not to do that.

AI is here and we are going to have to make peace with it. AI is not perfect in the collection of knowledge, just like humans. But it is the future whether we like it or not.

There is a gray line between using AI to enrich your knowledge then posting that knowledge and letting AI speak for itself. I don't know how we will sort all that out, but we are not going to "ban" our way out of this. It is here now and taking over all aspects of our life whether we agree or not.

 

[redbaron]

Turbo pilot:

I was personally more interested in your data driven approach and explanation of the WD hitch. You made a solid case. You used first hand knowledge and your research to back it up.

I remained engaged as you defended it and appreciated the back and forth discussion based on old methods and new methods.

You brought AI into the conversation and detailed the entire focus by doing so.

Take from my opinion what you wish, just giving you my raw thoughts.

 

[redbaron]

Turbo pilot said:

I am the only one with any experience actually towing, measuring and setting up this PowerBoost/LightShip vehicle with WDH systems. So how about giving me a little credit that I am approaching a controversial subject with diligent science and analysis.

This is a strong argument. For me this is all that was needed to prove the point.

 

[turbopilot]

This is a strong argument. For me this is all that was needed to prove the point.

Yes, but the previous discussion was a prelude to my next chapter to hopefully eliminate an old fashioned bars and chains approach to towing. Google Gemini already knew about the new project because it helped put it all together, thus it was buried in the dialog above.

I have decided to replace the Curt 17052 Round Bar WDH with a new system energized to cover most, but not all, of the issues surfaced by not running an old fashioned WDH.

It will involve using a Shocker 10K Streamline Aluminum Air Hitch and a LoadLifter 5000 Ultimate Air Spring Kit. I have the Shocker hitch installed and waiting for delivery of the Air Spring Kit. The total weight of the these two devices is 70 lbs replacing the 110 lb Curt hitch. This will involve a three air bag system to improve stability and level both the PowerBoost and the LightShip.

With my own analysis, coupled with Gemini's analysis, we both agree for the PowerBoost/LightShip system this hitch/suspension arrangement will be far superior to the Curt leverage system. The only thing the new system cannot do is move 160 lbs to the front axle. For that, both Gemini and I agree the combination of the enhanced electronic stability control systems of the PowerBoost plus the sway resistance of the LightShip with a low profile and very low center of gravity will offset any risk of not having that extra weight on the front axle. And the numbers work for PowerBoost axle loading as well.

So rather than just taking shots at departing from old dogma, it would be helpful for the critics on the forum to give me (and Gemini) a hand with constructive thoughts and analysis. And that begins by looking for a new ways to solve old problems. This may or may not work, but it is clearly worth a try. If it does not work, I simply fall back to the Curt system. I think it will work.

 

[Holdmybeer]

At the risk of creating a paradox which could mean the end of life on earth I asked Gemini AI
"If Gemini AI said a Rivian owner could tow a 9,000 lb AE1 without a WDH, would that make it okay? The short answer was " No" and it went on to say conflating airbags with a WDH in an either/or sense is a dangerous misconception. Best of all I'm still here.

 

[turbopilot]

If Gemini AI said a Rivian owner could tow a 9,000 lb AE1 without a WDH

The GVWR of a LightShip is 8,200 lbs. Not that you can't ask that question of AI but I suppose it may have an impact on the answer.

 

[Holdmybeer]

The sailboat skipper who does "The Mariner" videos uses AI in navigation as a tool which is what it is, it's not either/or. It won't replace knowing how to navigate with a sextant, having a reliable chronometer and barometer or knowing when to reef.

 

[Holdmybeer]

The GVWR of a LightShip is 8,200 lbs. Not that you can't ask that question of AI but I suppose it may have an impact on the answer.

It would not change the answer at all. The Rivian max tow capacity without a WDH is 5k and rear axle airbags are not a substitute for a WDH regardless the tow vehicle.

 

[turbopilot]

It would not change the answer at all. The Rivian max tow capacity without a WDH is 5k and rear axle airbags are not a substitute for a WDH regardless the tow vehicle.

I have not seen anyone who has suggested this. What is in question is whether the same rules need to apply for low profile, low center of gravity, self propelled trailers be towed by tow vehicles with advanced automation to detect and recover from incipient sway events. I thought Gemini did an excellent job at making that distinction. Do you really think Rivian did any research on this issue?

I know for a fact LightShip extensively tested the sway response of the LightShip in tow of Rivian and a PowerBoost to characterize sway with those tow vehicles. I have unpublished video proof of those tests taking place. There is a reason you see Rivians towing a LightShip in company videos without a WDH. They tested it. Did you?

 

[Holdmybeer]

I have not seen anyone who has suggested this. What is in question is whether the same rules need to apply for low profile, low center of gravity, self propelled trailers be towed by tow vehicles with advanced automation to detect and recover from incipient sway events. I thought Gemini did an excellent job at making that distinction. Do you really think Rivian did any research on this issue?

I know for a fact LightShip extensively tested the sway response of the LightShip in tow of Rivian and a PowerBoost to characterize sway with those tow vehicles. I have unpublished video proof of those tests taking place. There is a reason you see Rivians towing a LightShip in company videos without a WDH. They tested it. Did you?

Sway has nothing to do with it. You're still confused. Rivian says no to towing anything over 5k without a WDH, end of story. Take it up with Rivian.

 

[turbopilot]

Sway has nothing to do with it. You're still confused. Rivian says no to towing anything over 5k without a WDH, end of story. Take it up with Rivian.

It is the end of the story because you have run out of knowledge. Sway has everything to do with it because the 5,000 lb limit is based on the SAE J2807 standard of which "Total Control" is a key factor.

The 5,000 lb WDH requirement for the Rivian (and Ford) is based on the SAE J2807 standard used by most manufacturers. That standard covers:

1. Highway Gradability
2. Launch on Grade
3. Acceleration Requirements
4. Total Control (Handling)
5. Braking Performance
6. Structural Integrity.

Total Control checks for Understeer and Sway Damping specifically. For understeer the front tires have to demonstrate understeer breakout at .3g of lateral acceleration. And for sway dampening at 62 MPH it must demonstrate a negative damping ratio of >= .10.

But here is the big news. SAE J2807 is very specific about the trailer to be tested in order to pass the test.

1. The SAE standard mandates a trailer rated at 11,000 lbs and a frontal area of 60 square feet.

2. SAE J2807 dictates the height of the trailer's center of gravity. They will not allow a trailer with a low center of gravity to pass the test. They want the COG high to avoid "cheating", so it is set to the COG seen in a high profile slab sided trailer. Remember the standard was created before a trailer like the LightShip.

3. It requires a tongue weight of at least 10% of the trailer total weight tested.

4. And it requires a specific tire and track width for the tested trailer.

So the bottom line is the SAE J2807 test is rigged against the LightShip. It requires an 11,000 lb trailer (versus 8,200 for the LightShip). It requires a frontal area of 60 square feet (LighShip frontal area is 56 square feet versus 90 square feet for a typical high profile trailer and it requires a high center of gravity. Obviously, there is nothing in the standard about aerodynamics or self propulsion.

So the SAE J2807 is basically a test to make sure the tow vehicle being tested will meet a basic standard to tow a heavy, slab sided, high center of gravity, poorly aerodynamically designed trailer without self propulsion.

There is no SAE standard to predict the road worthiness of a tow vehicle with a trailer like the LightShip. So the 5,000 lb WDH requirement has nothing to do with a manufacturer recommendation and has everything to do with passing the rigged SAE J2807 test.