My thoughts on Rettrobands by NIRVC

[Neal]

Most of us have heard of Rettrobands by now. If you haven't click the link in the prior sentence to learn more but the gist is that it is a "mini tire" per se inside of your tire typically installed only on steer (front) tires. Almost all of us driving big rigs such as Class A's fear a steer tire blowout and some have lost their lives as a result of such an incident. My understanding is that NIRVC is a co-partner on this product or has acquired it, I don't know but it may be part of why they are so expensive.

And there in lies my problem with Rettrobands, the price. If you've developed a safety device that can save lives then in my opinion it would serve the RV community (or beyond) better by ensuring a wider distribution and make them affordable so EVERYONE can have these on their big rig. As of now they are "exclusively offered by NIRVC" per the website linked above which is problematic. Can NIRVC handle the demand for these and how much does this take away from other RV services needed? Sometimes companies set pricing to control the demand, i.e. high price to keep the demand under control to an acceptable level. But let me say again, is this serving the RV community in saving lives or is this protecting a limited distribution and schedule that only NIRVC can handle? I want to buy new tires and with no one other than NIRVC being able to install these, this drives owners to either buy tires from NIRVC only or having to schedule a visit to NIRVC which I don't know what that backlog entails or will entail in time.

How can this be improved and a wider distribution be offered? Let's take for example Centramatics which I am considering. If you go to the dealer locator you can see who all can install Centramatics (or sell them). Imagine if Rettrobands had the same depth of distribution which could help reduce costs but also SAVE MORE LIVES by getting this safety product to more vehicles. Documentation for installation including, yep, video training, can help train techs on how to install these. It can't be that difficult. Wouldn't it be great if your coach came off the line with Rettrobands installed?

I recently got a quote for Rettrobands for my 305 sized tires and it's $5k. That's 2 x tires (Rettrobands).

My request to NIRVC is to again help save lives, make these affordable, increase distribution to make them more attainable. The "rich" part of getting rich off of a safety product such as this should be in your heart and not in your wallet. Serve thy community and not thy self.

 

[Joe Hogan]

I bet most of that 5,000 cost is liability insurance, tooling and development costs. On a lower volume product, these costs might make up a large part of the 5,000.
For us, we negotiated the Bands in to the purchase price, our the first stop on our trip home from FPU will be NIRVC to have the RettroBands installed.
Hopefully they will never be needed but one less thing to worry about.

 

[Rich W.]

Last year the price was $3595 for 295 or 305 tires. I’d like to hear an explanation for a $1500 price jump in one year.

 

[Neal]

Last year the price was $3595 for 295 or 305 tires. I’d like to hear an explanation for a $1500 price jump in one year.

For the record and source. I emailed NIRVC's rep coordinating the 2023 Newmar Hoots this October to see if they were installing Rettrobands at the event and also asked if they were offering a discount to attendees. There is no discount she said. Due to a conflict they are not installing Rettrobands at this event but Corey Gann from NIRVC emailed:

For the 305 RettroBand size it will cost 4797.00 plus tax installed and balanced on both front steer tires

 

[Neemer]

Worth every penny regardless of price IMO.

 

[Joe Hogan]

Here is an interesting letter from Brett, posted in 2020. Gives you some history and, my thought is to why these things cost so much...

IMPORTANT UPDATE FOR ALL RETTROBAND OWNERS

Dear Rettroband Owner, For those of you whom I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting, my name is Brett Davis and I am the Founder and CEO of National Indoor RV Centers. I am also Co-Founder of Rettroband. For what it’s worth, I feel you should know I write all my own communications. Not our marketing department, and not our lawyers. I purchased my first coach in 1985. I have nine children and twenty six grandchildren. During those thirty five years, almost without exception, every time I’ve traveled I’ve had what I consider very precious cargo onboard in the form of my children and/or grandchildren. Needless to say, front tire blowouts have always been of paramount concern to me. Five years ago I met Robert Craig, Founder of Craig International Ballistics, when he was taking delivery of his coach from National Indoor RV Centers, and together we formed Rettroband. Craig International Ballistics is the largest supplier of armor to the Australian military, as well as eight other militaries around the world. Craig International Ballistic’s products range from body armor, to armored vehicles, to both fixed wing and rotary aircraft, and to vessels. Robert has thirty five years experience in manufacturing military grade armor and protective products for armored vehicles, including “run flat devices”. Robert’s and my desire was to develop a product, a “run flat device” which would free coach owners from the continual dread in the back of their minds of a front tire blowout. We both recognized the Motorhome market is a very small market, but in dire need of such a product. And, we both really desired to solve this problem. So, why am I writing you? A couple of my pet peeves over my thirty five years of RVing experiences are: Regardless of the number of times their products fail, or how widely known those failures are within the RVing community, the manufacturers almost always say “this is the first we’re hearing of this”. Whenever failures do occur, manufacturers tend to point up and down the supply chain trying to lay blame on someone else. These are only two of a myriad of frustrations I have personally experienced over my years of RVing, and which ultimately led to the founding of National Indoor RV Centers. When it comes to business I have always believed “if you have a problem, you put it up on the table so we all have a problem”. At National Indoor RV Centers we don’t hide issues, and we don’t duck from our customers. So, I am writing to inform you we have had several Rettroband failures recently, for a total of five Rettroband failures out of almost one thousand. While 5/1,000 is a very small percentage, in my opinion, one failure is one too many. We at Rettroband experienced our first failure on, none other than, September 11th, 2019. We immediately sent the failed Rettroband to the laboratory to determine the cause of the failure. The cause was found to be over tightening of the Rettroband due to improper installation. The next failure occurred June 21st, 2020, and the last three failures have been in the last three weeks which is prompting this communication. We have not received back the cause of the most recent failure from the lab yet as it just occurred a few days ago. However, it sure appears to have been over tightened as well, and is most distressing to me because we (NIRVC) installed it. I wish I had all the answers for this latest failure before writing this email, but I also didn’t want to delay in communicating what appears to be the issue and what we think the solution is. Immediately after determining the cause of the first failure, Robert started designing and engineering a solution, followed by molds, then production, and finally testing. I will try and paint a picture with words in hopes you’ll be able to visualize the problem, and therefore the solution. In our development of the product, which took 3.5 years to design, engineer, and test, Robert did extensive testing. I’ll share with you just a few of Robert‘s tests: Compression. Rettroband withstood 32,000 pounds of pressure before the Rettroband failed. Strength. On a tire testing machine acquired from Bridgestone by the Big Tyre Company, they took Rettroband up to 75.18mph and then instantly hit it with 10,000 pounds of pressure numerous times. Durability. We wanted to be certain a coach owner could safely drive to the next exit following a blowout. Below is a link to a video showing the Rettroband attached directly to the brake drum... no rim! The Rettroband has 6 tons (12,000 pounds) of weight on it, and is traveling at 45mph. FYI, the largest Alcoa aluminum rim is only rated to 10,500 pounds. As you will see, Rettroband is extremely durable, and more than capable of being driven on after a blowout. Remember, in a true blowout Rettroband will have the added benefits of being attached to a rim within a tire as compared to this video. Here is the link to the video: https://youtu.be/RmGGKxlHix0 Blowout. As many of you have seen before in the below video, we used a gas coach with a short wheelbase, and a very long overhang behind the drive axle. We also loaded the coach with ballast to the point we couldn’t get its speed above 65mph. While the test driver knew we were going to blow the tire, he didn’t know exactly when the tire would be blown. The drone shot at the 7:15 mark of the video captures the blowout from the exterior. Notice the coach doesn’t even wiggle. Then the interior camera shot at the 7:17 mark of the video captures the test driver’s hand on the steering wheel at the moment of the blowout. Notice again, the steering wheel doesn’t even wiggle. Here is the link to the video: https://youtu.be/ujVVWz-Wxjo Robert focused in testing on the pressure and compression associated with the centripetal force, and the sudden impact of a blowout. We knew it was critical during the installation of Rettrobands for the gearboxes to be centered, and tightened only until both halves touched. Preferably, we like to be able to slide a sheet of paper between the two halves. What we have found, unfortunately, is that third-party installers were using air wrenches or rattle guns, and over tightening the the gearboxes. Tightening beyond the ability to slide a piece of paper through where the two halves meet is incorrect, and we now know that apparently it may lead to Rettroband failures as the over tightening bows the two halves, and stretches the entire system causing it to work against itself. Now knowing the problem, as we now do, hopefully you’ll be able to visualize my explanation of the solution. Since “a picture is worth a thousand words” I’ll start with a series of pictures and explanations of each. Here is a drawing of the steel band which is inside the new Rettrobands:

The steel band is inside each of the halves which make up the complete Rettroband. The large metal pin the gearbox threads into, will now go through the both the hole in the polyurethane composite AND the steel band. The steel band is anchored to both the large metal pins in the same half of the Rettroband. Now as the gearboxes bring the two halves together the steel band will act as a torque brake mitigating the risk of over tightening. The steel band anchors the two other metal pins to each other in the event of over tightening, as opposed to the gearboxes pulling the pins through the polyurethane. Below is a picture of the steel band inside a polyurethane Rettroband. Notice how the large metal pin is no longer going through just the hole in the polyurethane, but it also goes through the steel band.

Below is a picture of the steel band inside a rubber Rettroband:

And finally, below is a picture showing the beginnings of a crack in the old Rettroband caused by over tightening. Once the crack has started we believe its travel can be accelerated in extreme heat. For example, one of the recent failures occurred during an outside temperature of 115 degrees, with pavement temperature of 150 degrees, and inside tire temperatures of almost 200 degrees. Hence, Robert’s testing of the new Rettrobands with the steel band inside have been performed this time around inside a kiln.

I hope I’ve been able to paint a picture for you of both the problem and the solution. The in-house testing of the new Rettroband is nearing completion. Following completion of our in-house testing, once again, actual road testing using explosive charges will be carried out at the Nevada Auto Testing Center (“NATC”). NATC is a certified track and where we test blowing tires at speed on a Motorhome. This testing was scheduled to have been done this past March, but due to the Coronavirus, NATC postponed our testing dates. We are currently scheduled to do our final round of testing at the NATC in the coming weeks. I’m sure the biggest question you are all asking yourselves right now is; what’s National Indoor RV Centers and Rettroband going to do about this? For this I’ll pull back the curtain a little. At National Indoor RV Centers, we’re in the business of making customers for life. To that end, one of our training programs is a mandatory “Book Club” meeting every Monday morning at 7:30am. In this meeting all our employees participate in real life customer service experiences, both inside and outside of our company, as we go through four books on customer service over, and over again. We stress treating a customer the way we would want to be treated if our roles were reversed. We emphasize “always doing what’s right regardless of the cost”. Additionally, Robert and I are concerned about what happens to your original Rettrobands when you need to replace your tires, or you sell your coach and the new owner needs to replace the tires. We will have no knowledge or control over how the new tire shop may reinstall the Rettrobands. Whether or not they will bother to follow the instructions. We are both the kind of men “who would rather sleep well, than eat well”. Rettroband was designed and engineered to keep you and your loved ones safe in the event of a blowout, and we will “practice what we preach” and stand behind the product or service we sell. We will be replacing the bands of all Rettrobands currently on the road at no cost to you our customer, and have ceased installations of the current design. (We won’t be replacing the gearboxes as they are not the problem, and we’ve never had one fail in either testing or in the market.) Also, upon completion of the testing and compliance at the NATC, we will begin mass production of the new redesigned Rettrobands. While around the clock production will be quick, shipping 20 tons will take 47 days at sea, and another 8 days to clear customs and be at our facilities. Once they are aboard the ship, and their arrival date is know, we will begin booking appointments to swap out your bands and rebalance your tires. In the meantime, I’m sure you’re wondering what happens should a Rettroband fail, and should you drive our coach while waiting on the replacement Rettrobands? Since I am not one of the five who experienced a Rettroband failure, I can’t speak to this firsthand. However, I can pass on what I’ve been told the experience felt like, and fortunately, one of the failures was captured on a dash camera. I’ve been told it felt “like a buckboard wagon ride” for about a quarter of a mile until they could get to the side of the road. Three of the failures described it as feeling “like their tire was severely out of balance”. Here again, I believe “a picture is worth a thousand words”, and you can make your own assessment. Here is the link to the dash camera video of one of the Rettroband failures: https://vimeo.com/438243665 Now as to the question of whether you should or shouldn’t drive your coach while waiting for your replacement bands? Here, I really can’t offer any advice, because it’s similar to asking “how long is a piece of rope”. However, I can and will offer my opinion. We can start with 1,000 Rettrobands currently on the road, and then make any assumption you’d like to make on the number of miles they’ve been driven on since the first installation sixteen months ago. I’m just “spitballing” here, but let’s say they’ve averaged 5,000 miles apiece, multiplied by 1,000 Rettrobands, would equal 5,000,000 miles, out of which five bands have failed without an accident or a fatality. Personally, I feel much safer driving with the existing Rettrobands than I do driving without them, or with the other competing “run flat” devices currently available on the market today. Please be sure, I will try to keep you updated on timing, as well as answer any questions as they arise. Please feel free to call, email, or text me. It may take a little time in responding, but I will get back to you. All the best, Brett Davis

 

[Joe Hogan]

And the NIRVC follow up with a Recall and V2 of the Rettroband

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Interested in having RettroBand installed on your RV? Read this blog to get an official update on RettroBand!

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[Joe Hogan]

Ok ok I am a bit obsessive but here is a real life story regarding Rettroband. Start min 1:42 to skip all the Intro stuff. Note no tire damage other than sidewall failure, also it can happen with relatively new tires. Looks like road debri cut the sidewall to me.

 

[FLSteve]

Let's take for example Centramatics which I am considering.

@Neal ... I had a set of Centramatics installed on all wheels and really like them. My ride does seem smoother now. Just my 2-cents in case it helps you get off the fence.

FLSteve

 

[Rich W.]

Most of us have heard of Rettrobands by now. If you haven't click the link in the prior sentence to learn more but the gist is that it is a "mini tire" per se inside of your tire typically installed only on steer (front) tires. Almost all of us driving big rigs such as Class A's fear a steer tire blowout and some have lost their lives as a result of such an incident. My understanding is that NIRVC is a co-partner on this product or has acquired it, I don't know but it may be part of why they are so expensive.

And there in lies my problem with Rettrobands, the price. If you've developed a safety device that can save lives then in my opinion it would serve the RV community (or beyond) better by ensuring a wider distribution and make them affordable so EVERYONE can have these on their big rig. As of now they are "exclusively offered by NIRVC" per the website linked above which is problematic. Can NIRVC handle the demand for these and how much does this take away from other RV services needed? Sometimes companies set pricing to control the demand, i.e. high price to keep the demand under control to an acceptable level. But let me say again, is this serving the RV community in saving lives or is this protecting a limited distribution and schedule that only NIRVC can handle? I want to buy new tires and with no one other than NIRVC being able to install these, this drives owners to either buy tires from NIRVC only or having to schedule a visit to NIRVC which I don't know what that backlog entails or will entail in time.

How can this be improved and a wider distribution be offered? Let's take for example Centramatics which I am considering. If you go to the dealer locator you can see who all can install Centramatics (or sell them). Imagine if Rettrobands had the same depth of distribution which could help reduce costs but also SAVE MORE LIVES by getting this safety product to more vehicles. Documentation for installation including, yep, video training, can help train techs on how to install these. It can't be that difficult. Wouldn't it be great if your coach came off the line with Rettrobands installed?

I recently got a quote for Rettrobands for my 305 sized tires and it's $5k. That's 2 x tires (Rettrobands).

My request to NIRVC is to again help save lives, make these affordable, increase distribution to make them more attainable. The "rich" part of getting rich off of a safety product such as this should be in your heart and not in your wallet. Serve thy community and not thy self.

…and as any student of micro-economics knows, you can often increase net profits by lower price to reach the equilibrium point on the supply and demand curves. In their defense they may have done that, but I think Neal makes a valid point - the potential demand is probably much greater than current supply, so there is most likely a large untapped market that can be reached by lowering price. Maintaining a higher price and a smaller market does ensure predictable profits, but it does so at the expense of potential gains due to market elasticity. And since here is no competition here, it seems they could afford to go out on a limb a little but and give it a try. But as I said, maybe they have. But something caused a $1202 price jump in one year and I doubt it was a lack of demand - more likely it is related to the lack of competition.

 

[Tnedator]

@Neal In the very beginning, with version 1, they were letting people buy them and having them installed locally, as in theory they are pretty simple to install, but they found that installer error (over tightening) was leading to problems. They are/were having enough challenge getting their own techs to use proper technique (at least one version 2 failed, due to improper installation by an NIRVC tech).

As to price, Chuck Lassley just posted the other day that the current price for 295 is 3995 plus tax, which if they follow past practices, will be the same price for 305. I know I was originally quoted 3495, but then had about a nine month delay due to neck surgery and don't recall if they charged me the 3500 or 4000 price when I finally had it done.

 

[Joe Hogan]

Here is what the new RettroBands look like. Clearly des to keep tire off road surfaces.

 

[GUS2000]

I have been reading about Retrobands and Red Diamond Run Flats and based on what I have read, I'm leaning toward the Red Diamon Run Flats.. just my 2c

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[Bigblockyeti]

Looking at the differences between the Red Diamond and Rettrobands, the Red Diamond is a superior design from an engineering standpoint. The differential speed between what was formerly the tire radius and the new radius after a blow out and riding on a hyper expensive rubber ring is enough to shred a tire in short order with a Rettroband. It appears the theory is it would still take longer to do so than to get the coach to a complete stop after a blowout. Red Diamond has addressed this so much so as to allow continued driving on the blown out tire for a maximum of 15 miles.

 

[FLSteve]

I have been reading about Retrobands and Red Diamond Run Flats and based on what I have read, I'm leaning toward the Red Diamon Run Flats.. just my 2c

@GUS2000 ... I wonder which one of these came out (to the marketplace) first? Other than the shape and color they almost look the same, but I am sure there are some differences. How do they compare on pricing?

FLSteve

 

[GUS2000]

@GUS2000 ... I wonder which one of these came out (to the marketplace) first? Other than the shape and color they almost look the same, but I am sure there are some differences. How do they compare on pricing?

FLSteve

Looks like the Red Diamond developed product line has been used in military applications for quite some time now. so I would be willing to best their testing for government applications was more thorough than what has been done for a newly developed consumer application. The v1 retroband failures are a red flag to me.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Looks like the Red Diamond developed product line has been used in military applications for quite some time now. so I would be willing to best their testing for government applications was more thorough than what has been done for a newly developed consumer application. The v1 retroband failures are a red flag to me.

The question is! Who developed this technology? Similar to is not the same as we developed for. Seems the videos came live 8 months ago for red Diamond.

Little changes in patent claims allow for patenting.

Seems red Diamond did some patent searching as they saw issues with the competitions product! Because they may have analyzed the true failure, they came up with a more Thoroughly studied solution for the problem! Let's not consider failure of the already failed tire, instead let's consider why the band has been failing. I think they analyzed the true failure point of the retroband.

For those considering these products, think of your concerns with a monopoly!!! And buy with conference that competition will improve the products, and open more options for service and installation.

 

[Rich W.]

I have been reading about Retrobands and Red Diamond Run Flats and based on what I have read, I'm leaning toward the Red Diamon Run Flats.. just my 2c

Parts & Accessories - Spartan RV Chassis

Spartan RV Chassis replacement parts and accessories.

reddiamondparts.com

“Brought to you by Spartan® RV Chassis new aftermarket parts and service brand…”
It would be interesting to compare their pricing since they are so similar to Retrobands.

 

[DennisT]

The Australian company that started Retro Bands does the same technology for the military.

Sounds like they both have similar roots in that regard.

Nice to see additional options related to safety starting to hit the market.

 

[GUS2000]

from a friend of mine -
"Rettroband vs Red Diamond will have some differences, albeit minor. Rettroband has a fixed ring attached to the wheel to support the rubber in the event of a blowout, keeping the tire carcass under the wheel. Red Diamond has freewheeling rollers that let the rubber and ring spin around the wheel so the tire belting isn't further shredded by stretching.

In reality the difference in performance for an RV is probably minimal, since in the event of a flat you're stopping as soon as possible. But the rollerized Hutchinson (Red Diamond) has potential to be driven short distances even with a damaged tire where the Rettroband can't. Hutchinson is what's put inside of JLTV tires to enable them to continue moving even after all the tires are blown out."

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