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Why can't RV builders figure out the small trailer market?

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Blueblaze

RVF Regular
Joined
May 27, 2024
Messages
28
Ok, new user, first post, and already I'm whining. But hear me out.

We sold our 24' Phoenix Cruiser a few years ago, and have missed it ever since. What we don't miss is the astronomical storage costs, the crappy Smart car toad, and paying taxes on $100K worth of vehicles that get used 6 weeks a year.

So we've been looking for a usable small travel trailer that's tow-able behind our daily-driver midsize SUV. Given that there are 50 million retired folks with cash in the bank, just like us, you'd think there would be a bewildering array of choices. Instead, there is a bewildering array of nearly identical crap from a dozen vendors. Why can't any these guys figure out this market?

Hey idiots -- your target market is not a pair 30-somethings with $30K to spend on a week in an 8x10 cell with a pack of kids! Your market is RETIRED COUPLES! PERIOD.

So if any of you idiot RV builders are reading this, this is how you can quit building all those thousands and thousands of unsold little campers I see at every sales lot I visit:

#1 RECLINER SOFA. THERE MUST BE A COMFORTABLE PLACE TO SIT!!! What do old people do on vacation when they're not looking at stuff? THEY WATCH TV. You can't do that sitting in some stupid little cramped dinette with 2" cushions -- or for that matter, the 2" cushions on some jackknife fake "sofa". This is an example of whet we're looing for picture of what we're looking for: DeLeon Sofa recliner. When we had the Cruiser, the 1st thing we did was rip out that ridiculous dinette and replace it with a "DeLeon" recliner couch, complete with swivel TV-trays and drink holders. Every RV made should have something like this!

#2 MURPHY BED. Old people require a comfortable REAL bed, not a bunch of foam sofa cushions covered with a sheet. When you combine a recliner couch with a real bed, the result is called a MURPHY BED. Many trailers have them. None of them are small enough to tow with an SUV, because you insist on sticking that damned worthless dinette in there, along with a full bathroom.

#3 SO, GET RID OF THAT STUPID, SPACE-WASTING DINETTE! Nobody but kids have any use whatsoever for a dinette. They are uncomfortable for any purpose short of feeding or bedding down a pack of kids. GET RID OF IT! If you've got room for one these stupid things in a sub-3,500 lb trailer, then give me a decent CLOSET, for crying out loud!

#4 CLOSET and CHEST OF DRAWERS. Who wants to live out of a suitcase in the back of an SUV for a weeks on end? Get a clue! Without that stupid dinette, you have room for civilization!

#5 TOILET. Yes, a separate shower is nice, but totally optional. An enclosed toilet is not. If the choice is closet-and-wet-bath, or toilet-and-dry-bath, we'll take the closet every single time. Nobody actually showers in a tiny RV shower anyway. That's what campgrounds are for.

#6 FREEZER AND MICROWAVE. Refrigerators are nice, but a large FREEZER is a requirement. Nobody is making 5 course dinners in a 8x10 livingroom/bedroom/kitchen, on a two-burner stove. We usually eat TV dinners on the road if we're not eating out. You only need a fridge for beer and condiments. So don't try to give me some stupid college dorm fridge with a fake freezer, stuck under the sink. We need the real deal.

#7 STORAGE SPACE. Every nook and cranny, everywhere you look. I don't need a place to hold a dance party. I need a place for my stuff.

#8 TPMS AND BRAKES. What kind of moron sells a single-axle trailer, without providing a way for the driver to monitor those toy tires back there, from 30' away in the driver's seat. And what kind of moron expects a Honda's brakes to stop a 3500 lb trailer in an emergency? There oughta be a law!

#9 CAMERA. This is not an optional convenience. We're not dragging a utility trailer across town, we're towing our home across the country. I want to see what that idiot behind me is doing before he makes me homeless 1,000 miles from home!

#10 TINY TANKS. At 70 years old, I'm not taking a week off from golf so I can go live off the grid on top a mountain. Those giant tanks are a waste of space and weight. This trailer will almost always be connected to services, in an RV park, except for...

#11 SOLAR AND BATTERIES. Between destinations, I often park at Walmart or Flying-J. So the trailer must have at least 18 hours of self-sufficiency, while running the A/C and TV, not to mention, keeping the freezer cold on a 18 hour drive. Solar seems obvious, but if you can figure out how to charge the batteries through the trailer wiring, even better.

And one last request:

#12 MAKE IT GARAGE-ABLE. Why, oh, why do you insist on sticking a Dometic A/C on the roof when an ordinary window unit works fine for such a tiny space? And why must every trailer's ceiling accommodate Wilt Chamberlain? I don't care if I have to stoop a little, if it saves me $1,000/year in storage costs! I really don't plan to spend much time standing around in it, anyway! The average garage door is 7'-6". The average American is 5'9". That gives you 21" to distribute between ground clearance and roof structure. Figure it out!

I just hope some manufacturer sees this and builds a usable trailer while I'm still young enough to buy one!
 
Forgive my ignorance! I've been doing this RV lifestyle for several years, built a few,sold a few! Every time I am through building one for personal use, I hear the people praise my work. they say I should start building trailers! Then I get some new ideas so out comes the for sale sign! Yup you guessed it! Hard as hen's teeth to sell.

The point is, I have been trying to figure out the "market" for a very Long time!

What is the market??? I'm listening!

One of your points concerns the dinette! They call those things that people are glued to boob tubes for a reason! Some people would rather play a game with family or friends,so feel a dinette is nessisary.

Many people want a shower they can feel comfortable using. Low ceilings,and small tanks stop that idea in it's tracks.

MURPHY!!! What can go wrong???

The point is the only time the question, "if you think you can do better, then why don't you just buy me out?". That has had a Happy ending,that I know of, was when Silver Line sold to the owner of Newell!!!

You, like others, seem to know what they want! Those that get it convert,or build from scratch!

I have done both, and always see what I could have done better!!!

Just saying!

Welcome to the forum!
 
We recently purchased a 17 foot travel trailer, I converted the tub to shower, but towable behind a suv?
Go ahead! The comforts of home come at a cost,my dad Did build a truck camper that suited us,it is possible to build what you need and want,but personally I don't have the time tools or talent, so I purchased used.
 
Didn't read your whole post in detail but it's funny because if you bought yourself a truck and bumped up to the 24-27' range, it seems like there are tons of couples trailers and not so many with bunks and other features that young families want.
 
Ok, new user, first post, and already I'm whining. But hear me out.

We sold our 24' Phoenix Cruiser a few years ago, and have missed it ever since. What we don't miss is the astronomical storage costs, the crappy Smart car toad, and paying taxes on $100K worth of vehicles that get used 6 weeks a year.

So we've been looking for a usable small travel trailer that's tow-able behind our daily-driver midsize SUV. Given that there are 50 million retired folks with cash in the bank, just like us, you'd think there would be a bewildering array of choices. Instead, there is a bewildering array of nearly identical crap from a dozen vendors. Why can't any these guys figure out this market?

Hey idiots -- your target market is not a pair 30-somethings with $30K to spend on a week in an 8x10 cell with a pack of kids! Your market is RETIRED COUPLES! PERIOD.

So if any of you idiot RV builders are reading this, this is how you can quit building all those thousands and thousands of unsold little campers I see at every sales lot I visit:

#1 RECLINER SOFA. THERE MUST BE A COMFORTABLE PLACE TO SIT!!! What do old people do on vacation when they're not looking at stuff? THEY WATCH TV. You can't do that sitting in some stupid little cramped dinette with 2" cushions -- or for that matter, the 2" cushions on some jackknife fake "sofa". This is an example of whet we're looing for picture of what we're looking for: DeLeon Sofa recliner. When we had the Cruiser, the 1st thing we did was rip out that ridiculous dinette and replace it with a "DeLeon" recliner couch, complete with swivel TV-trays and drink holders. Every RV made should have something like this!

#2 MURPHY BED. Old people require a comfortable REAL bed, not a bunch of foam sofa cushions covered with a sheet. When you combine a recliner couch with a real bed, the result is called a MURPHY BED. Many trailers have them. None of them are small enough to tow with an SUV, because you insist on sticking that damned worthless dinette in there, along with a full bathroom.

#3 SO, GET RID OF THAT STUPID, SPACE-WASTING DINETTE! Nobody but kids have any use whatsoever for a dinette. They are uncomfortable for any purpose short of feeding or bedding down a pack of kids. GET RID OF IT! If you've got room for one these stupid things in a sub-3,500 lb trailer, then give me a decent CLOSET, for crying out loud!

#4 CLOSET and CHEST OF DRAWERS. Who wants to live out of a suitcase in the back of an SUV for a weeks on end? Get a clue! Without that stupid dinette, you have room for civilization!

#5 TOILET. Yes, a separate shower is nice, but totally optional. An enclosed toilet is not. If the choice is closet-and-wet-bath, or toilet-and-dry-bath, we'll take the closet every single time. Nobody actually showers in a tiny RV shower anyway. That's what campgrounds are for.

#6 FREEZER AND MICROWAVE. Refrigerators are nice, but a large FREEZER is a requirement. Nobody is making 5 course dinners in a 8x10 livingroom/bedroom/kitchen, on a two-burner stove. We usually eat TV dinners on the road if we're not eating out. You only need a fridge for beer and condiments. So don't try to give me some stupid college dorm fridge with a fake freezer, stuck under the sink. We need the real deal.

#7 STORAGE SPACE. Every nook and cranny, everywhere you look. I don't need a place to hold a dance party. I need a place for my stuff.

#8 TPMS AND BRAKES. What kind of moron sells a single-axle trailer, without providing a way for the driver to monitor those toy tires back there, from 30' away in the driver's seat. And what kind of moron expects a Honda's brakes to stop a 3500 lb trailer in an emergency? There oughta be a law!

#9 CAMERA. This is not an optional convenience. We're not dragging a utility trailer across town, we're towing our home across the country. I want to see what that idiot behind me is doing before he makes me homeless 1,000 miles from home!

#10 TINY TANKS. At 70 years old, I'm not taking a week off from golf so I can go live off the grid on top a mountain. Those giant tanks are a waste of space and weight. This trailer will almost always be connected to services, in an RV park, except for...

#11 SOLAR AND BATTERIES. Between destinations, I often park at Walmart or Flying-J. So the trailer must have at least 18 hours of self-sufficiency, while running the A/C and TV, not to mention, keeping the freezer cold on a 18 hour drive. Solar seems obvious, but if you can figure out how to charge the batteries through the trailer wiring, even better.

And one last request:

#12 MAKE IT GARAGE-ABLE. Why, oh, why do you insist on sticking a Dometic A/C on the roof when an ordinary window unit works fine for such a tiny space? And why must every trailer's ceiling accommodate Wilt Chamberlain? I don't care if I have to stoop a little, if it saves me $1,000/year in storage costs! I really don't plan to spend much time standing around in it, anyway! The average garage door is 7'-6". The average American is 5'9". That gives you 21" to distribute between ground clearance and roof structure. Figure it out!

I just hope some manufacturer sees this and builds a usable trailer while I'm still young enough to buy one!
This is what my wife's parents have. Seems to meet a lot of your requirements but I wouldn't try to tow it with an SUV. Note that there are other options that can be substituted for the dinette.

 
Didn't read your whole post in detail but it's funny because if you bought yourself a truck and bumped up to the 24-27' range, it seems like there are tons of couples trailers and not so many with bunks and other features that young families want.
As I read your response, it brings to mind a comment my brother used to make!

"Kevin, it doesn't cost that much!" Mind you we are not talking money here! But it all translates! Money management should be in everyone's plan at a young 70.

Wanting to trade down from 24ft due to HOA restrictions, makes a lot of sense. For me however ditching the HOA is more practical! But then not everyone at the prime of their life desires to start over!!!

Why! and what! are important to grasp in this man's rant!!! Now on to My brother. All things are relevant, and My brothers comment, comes from a man who's income was 4 times what mine was!!! Is this making any sense???
 
I think the "small" trailer market has been figured out. It's almost completely driven by budget. Sounds like you need to dig deeper and find the small low volume builder.
 
Sounds like you have some great ideas. Here are some folks that make custom RVs.

Google search of custom RV builders

.40
Yes, there are a handful of small outfits around the country who will customize a half-million-dollar Prevost or a $100K Promaster for you. Not what I am talking about.

Meanwhile, every travel trailer builder in the country sells a small, barely-towable, wall-of-aluminum trailer with some stupid dinette that converts from a daytime TV torture device to a nighttime sleep torture device, in order to have some place to put all those kids that grew up 20 years ago. My question is, why do they do that? The most hilarious one of the bunch is the only small trailer with an actual murphy bed -- the Forest river R Pod RP-153C. Take a wild guess what you get when you put the bed away!

A DINETTE! ! ! ARGGGG!! This is me, literally pulling my last hair out!
 
Didn't read your whole post in detail but it's funny because if you bought yourself a truck and bumped up to the 24-27' range, it seems like there are tons of couples trailers and not so many with bunks and other features that young families want.
Heck, as long as we're spending money, why not a million-dollar Prevost!

The question is not whether comfortable RV's exist. I used to have one, back before I retired -- back when I used to have a job that allowed me to throw away money by the bucketful. The question is why do RV builders try to sell these small SUV-towable trailers that seem to be designed by Dr. Evil as human torture devices, when if they just pulled their head out and realized who their market was, they woudn't wind up with thousands of unsold trailers, with all those stupid dinettes and unsleepable beds.
 
Forgive my ignorance! I've been doing this RV lifestyle for several years, built a few,sold a few! Every time I am through building one for personal use, I hear the people praise my work. they say I should start building trailers! Then I get some new ideas so out comes the for sale sign! Yup you guessed it! Hard as hen's teeth to sell.

The point is, I have been trying to figure out the "market" for a very Long time!

What is the market??? I'm listening!

One of your points concerns the dinette! They call those things that people are glued to boob tubes for a reason! Some people would rather play a game with family or friends,so feel a dinette is nessisary.

Many people want a shower they can feel comfortable using. Low ceilings,and small tanks stop that idea in it's tracks.

MURPHY!!! What can go wrong???

The point is the only time the question, "if you think you can do better, then why don't you just buy me out?". That has had a Happy ending,that I know of, was when Silver Line sold to the owner of Newell!!!

You, like others, seem to know what they want! Those that get it convert,or build from scratch!

I have done both, and always see what I could have done better!!!

Just saying!

Welcome to the forum!
Do you seriously think anybody 55 and over hits the road so they can spend their evenings in a cramped booth playing "Go Fish" with their spouse, while sitting on a place mat that's trying to pass for a seat cushion? You may look down on retired folks who would rather spend their evenings in front of the boob tube than sitting on a rock next to a campfire, but all I can say, buddy, is -- your time is coming.

And by the way -- I'm your market. Make a tow-able, garage-able trailer with a comfortable bed and couch, and 50 million retirees with beat a path to your door. Nobody who has kids wants to spend a week with them in an 8x10 cell. So quit making that assumption, and maybe you might not need anyone to buy you out.
 
@Blueblaze - Describe what your ideal trailer would be. Feel free to mix features found in a Prevost or a Popup trailer. I am just curious what your are looking for, as I am sure it exists, or can easily be retrofit based on whats out there. I have done a lot of this, as I now own 2 motorhomes and 3 travel trailers. I tend to buy a product for a specific purpose but have done a fair bit of customizing along the way.

I have a 2700lb camper for towing behind my jeep, a 38ft travel trailer, a 50Ft 6 horse trailer with living quarters, a 2019 Gas Newmar Coach and a 2022 London Air Diesel pusher. I also have a few tents and hammocks that I use seasonally, so I am pretty well rounded out in the camping experience.
 
If the market was there I imagine the products would be there.

I think that trailer hitches on "mid size suv's" are an after thought, I certainly wouldn't do any camper towing with one. After a cut down to one lane traffic jam on I75 on the way home from Florida I saw a midsize suv towing a small airstream. It was the reason for the lane blockage. Jack knifed with side of suv caved in and airstream on it's side. Obvious tail wagging the dog situation.
I suggest that even if you took a 14 ft box/cargo trailer and built your own design with the things you ask for that you'd still be over the capabilities of a mid size suv.

I'm 67 and I don't know anyone my age who wants to use campground showers.
 
Do you seriously think anybody 55 and over hits the road so they can spend their evenings in a cramped booth playing "Go Fish" with their spouse, while sitting on a place mat that's trying to pass for a seat cushion? You may look down on retired folks who would rather spend their evenings in front of the boob tube than sitting on a rock next to a campfire, but all I can say, buddy, is -- your time is coming.

And by the way -- I'm your market. Make a tow-able, garage-able trailer with a comfortable bed and couch, and 50 million retirees with beat a path to your door. Nobody who has kids wants to spend a week with them in an 8x10 cell. So quit making that assumption, and maybe you might not need anyone to buy you out.
Well son! At 50 I was sailing in the sea of Cortez! In my late 60's I was building a few trailers. When I turned 70, I slowed down with haunta virus! I'm not looking for a market,only to stay busy, and have what I can't buy! For sure life is short, and not living it to the fullest, seems a fools game to me!

My suggestion to you, is buy what is sound, and make it your own! Life is too short to wait on others!!!
 
And by the way -- I'm your market. Make a tow-able, garage-able trailer with a comfortable bed and couch,....
This one requiremnet means that it is going to be a collapsable style trailer.

Hi-Lo Trailers: Camping Trailers | Hi-Lo Trailers are going to be the upper end, while the popup campers will be on the lower end.

Hi-Lo does not make any current products as they never recovered from the Covid. The market demand just was not there.

There is also Trail Manor, which is in current limited production.

As most garages are 8Ft doors, with 7ft 6in clearance, it is impossible to get a travel trailer in any standard home garage.
 
Interesting. I don't where you camp (or used to) but when I go there is no shortage of 30-somethings out there with shiny new campers. Some of them are my kids even.
Most manufacturers figure out quite quickly how to build "what sells". They are trying to make money. It's safe to assume the ones still in business after a number of years have a clue on what to put on the lots. They pay people to do nothing but figure that out.
 
As I read your response, it brings to mind a comment my brother used to make!

"Kevin, it doesn't cost that much!" Mind you we are not talking money here! But it all translates! Money management should be in everyone's plan at a young 70.

Wanting to trade down from 24ft due to HOA restrictions, makes a lot of sense. For me however ditching the HOA is more practical! But then not everyone at the prime of their life desires to start over!!!

Why! and what! are important to grasp in this man's rant!!! Now on to My brother. All things are relevant, and My brothers comment, comes from a man who's income was 4 times what mine was!!! Is this making any sense???
I'd never buy a house in a neighborhood with an HOA.
 
Heck, as long as we're spending money, why not a million-dollar Prevost!

The question is not whether comfortable RV's exist. I used to have one, back before I retired -- back when I used to have a job that allowed me to throw away money by the bucketful. The question is why do RV builders try to sell these small SUV-towable trailers that seem to be designed by Dr. Evil as human torture devices, when if they just pulled their head out and realized who their market was, they woudn't wind up with thousands of unsold trailers, with all those stupid dinettes and unsleepable beds.
Maybe it's because they do know what the market is. Surprise, surprise, you're far from the only customer in the market.
 
Do you seriously think anybody 55 and over hits the road so they can spend their evenings in a cramped booth playing "Go Fish" with their spouse
I would give all I have in this matrix, to make that happen again! But the game of choice between Us was jokers and pegs. The more we could get around that table no matter how crowded,the better! And yes those that sat in those wonderful moments, still tell me they miss them, and Her! So I am My market!

Maybe, just maybe your time will come, but hopefully you will have the same joy to look back on!!!

The most comfortable chair I ever sat in had no cushion. Cushions came after Craftsman quit making wooden chairs. Course that opinion is subjective!!!
 
Blueblaze you sound like the customers at the grocery stores where I worked for over 30 years.
They complained to no end when "their" product was discontinued. They would always complain about the store discontinuing the best products. In reality store do not discontinue products the sell.
Manufacturers do in fact know what the market wants, they're not going to build a trailer that doesn't sell.
 

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