Why can't RV builders figure out the small trailer market?

[Kevin D Pem]

Blueblaze you sound like the customers at the grocery stores where I worked for over 30 years.
They complained to no end when "their" product was discontinued. They would always complain about the store discontinuing the best products. In reality store do not discontinue products the sell.
Manufacturers do in fact know what the market wants, they're not going to build a trailer that doesn't sell.

That's to easy!!! Cuss de mer demand!!!

 

[old timer]

100% agree with fish,we have been doing the camping hobby for years,Michigan and Indiana. I can count on one hand when the bathroom facilities were comfortable, this is why I purchased a trailer and remodeled the tub to a shower. Michigan state parks having the best facilities.

 

[Blueblaze]

Ok, I'm full of it. But here's a fun fact. The closest thing out there to my list is probably the Jayco Hummingbird 16MRB. Reasonably comfortable sofa/murphy bed, and NO DINETTE. Wastes a bunch of space on a giant dry bath, but can at least claim an actual closet. Barely towable by an SUV.

As near as I can tell, there are a grand total of THREE for sale in the entire country.

It's no longer made. It was replaced by the Jay Flight SLX 154BH. Bunk beds for the kids, with a front dinette that converts to a sleep torture device for the grownups -- exactly like the same trailer from Coachman, Forest River, and everyone else. RVTrader shows 5,717 available nationwide, ignoring all the other identical trailers from the other vendors.

If I'm so off-base, why didn't everyone who owned a Hummingbird dump them for a Jay Flight? There ought to be thousands of them out there, dirt cheap. But apparently, a whole bunch of satisfied owners are hoarding them, and nobody wants the replacement. If Jayco is so perfectly in-tune to their market, why haven't they noticed?

Here another example. At first blush, this one looks like the one: Winnebago Hike 100 H1316MB. Murphy bed, closet, wet bath, tiny fridge, and that's it. It's TOO small. And yet the silly thing has a 550' hitch weight! What are they thinking? Completely un-towable by an SUV. And yet there are half of many of them available as that bigger, lighter, bunkhouse Jayflight, with its 250lb hitch weight and front torture device.

I'm sorry. I don't see any evidence that the vendors have the slightest clue about this end of the market, at all.

 

[Blueblaze]

@Blueblaze - Describe what your ideal trailer would be. Feel free to mix features found in a Prevost or a Popup trailer. I am just curious what your are looking for, as I am sure it exists, or can easily be retrofit based on whats out there. I have done a lot of this, as I now own 2 motorhomes and 3 travel trailers. I tend to buy a product for a specific purpose but have done a fair bit of customizing along the way.

I have a 2700lb camper for towing behind my jeep, a 38ft travel trailer, a 50Ft 6 horse trailer with living quarters, a 2019 Gas Newmar Coach and a 2022 London Air Diesel pusher. I also have a few tents and hammocks that I use seasonally, so I am pretty well rounded out in the camping experience.

I don't think I can do any better at describing my perfect trailer than the post that started this thread.

Sounds like you are an expert at camping. Me too. I once spent a month hiking the Appalachian Trail with a 30lb pack, sleeping in a tent that used my hiking poles for support. It was one of the highlights of my life. But I don't use an RV to go camping. I use an RV to go TRAVELING.

Most people my age are far past the camping stage of their lives. Unless they're going camping, the people who might be interested in a small trailer pulled by an SUV are retired couples, not families with kids. Any old popup works fine for camping. But like most retired couples who like RVing (and don't like sleeping in a stranger's bed), I'm looking for a rolling motel room, not a glorified tent. I don't understand why the vendors don't get that.

 

[redbaron]

I don't think I can do any better at describing my perfect trailer than the post that started this thread.

As I stated above, fitting in a garage is not feasible beyond the popup category.

The way I solved that delima is I built a garage that would fit my RVs.

Once that is resolved, then you need to determine the max weight and length you want to deal with, and then start prioritizing various features. Airstream is probably where you would find the most options, and you can custom order one or buy an older one that can be remodeled to fit your needs exactly.

 

[old timer]

Ok, I'm full of it. But here's a fun fact. The closest thing out there to my list is probably the Jayco Hummingbird 16MRB. Reasonably comfortable sofa/murphy bed, and NO DINETTE. Wastes a bunch of space on a giant dry bath, but can at least claim an actual closet. Barely towable by an SUV.

As near as I can tell, there are a grand total of THREE for sale in the entire country.

It's no longer made. It was replaced by the Jay Flight SLX 154BH. Bunk beds for the kids, with a front dinette that converts to a sleep torture device for the grownups -- exactly like the same trailer from Coachman, Forest River, and everyone else. RVTrader shows 5,717 available nationwide, ignoring all the other identical trailers from the other vendors.

If I'm so off-base, why didn't everyone who owned a Hummingbird dump them for a Jay Flight? There ought to be thousands of them out there, dirt cheap. But apparently, a whole bunch of satisfied owners are hoarding them, and nobody wants the replacement. If Jayco is so perfectly in-tune to their market, why haven't they noticed?

Here another example. At first blush, this one looks like the one: Winnebago Hike 100 H1316MB. Murphy bed, closet, wet bath, tiny fridge, and that's it. It's TOO small. And yet the silly thing has a 550' hitch weight! What are they thinking? Completely un-towable by an SUV. And yet there are half of many of them available as that bigger, lighter, bunkhouse Jayflight, with its 250lb hitch weight and front torture device.

I'm sorry. I don't see any evidence that the vendors have the slightest clue about this end of the market, at all.

I dialed in mentally what we needed and went to see a similar model at a dealership and found out the model I was looking for was no longer available and the newer models was not the same floor plan.
I don't agree that the manufacturer builds what is desired, as much as they do a cycle for a time and then change floor plan.
Basically put the same thing in a different place, but what I did was new what I wanted and found 1 in Oklahoma and 1 in Wisconsin, we are in Indiana.
You may need to shop until you find the right camper and be prepared to make a trip. That in itself is a challenge.
We did look at a few trailers that were lighter than 3000 lbs,no thanks, not what they were asking for price.
BTW I think you're correct on your first comment.

 

[Rosy]

I don't think I can do any better at describing my perfect trailer than the post that started this thread.

Sounds like you are an expert at camping. Me too. I once spent a month hiking the Appalachian Trail with a 30lb pack, sleeping in a tent that used my hiking poles for support. It was one of the highlights of my life. But I don't use an RV to go camping. I use an RV to go TRAVELING.

Most people my age are far past the camping stage of their lives. Unless they're going camping, the people who might be interested in a small trailer pulled by an SUV are retired couples, not families with kids. Any old popup works fine for camping. But like most retired couples who like RVing (and don't like sleeping in a stranger's bed), I'm looking for a rolling motel room, not a glorified tent. I don't understand why the vendors don't get that.

Why not just stay in a motel, then?

 

[Kevin D Pem]

So it seems ironical that your first post appeared shortly after a joke I shared.

Honestly I thought your post was a joke so responded as such!

Anyhow I get some of what your saying,but not all! As such I need to ask you a few questions!

1) do you have any children?
2) how many?
3) do your kids visit, do you want them to,(if you have any)?
4)are they twins (if you have any)???

Please don't answer!

Just know that accomodations in my rig is unacceptable for more than a couple! If there is an opportunity for a family visit, I will gladly sleep in the truck,and offer family my trailer as their hometel!!!

Some might get a chuckle out of this,and it was written for that effect, but underneath this post is serious!!!

 

[John&Andrea]

Good thoughts to some degree. My take away is you need to find what suits best, no RV will have everything and go more. Retired and 6 weeks of use is not enough travel time. . Enjoy.

 

[LMHS]

I suggest that you buy what is close to what you want in the way the floor plan is laid out. You can remove and replace dinettes and sofas. You can even replace the bed/mattress.

I built my own "Residential Vehicle" inside a former school bus (this is my home not a weekender rolling apartment). I have an 11CF upright freezer (a must), a washer & an LP dryer (also musts), a bathroom with a separate shower (lived with a wet bath and loathed it). I have a 30 inch home range (the one from my last house) which I considered important. I also have a dishwasher (I don't like to hand wash dishes). And I have a propane fireplace (had to put that vintage fireplace mantle to work). I do not have a dinette. Had one in a class c. It was a catch all. My husband and I tended to eat meals while watching a movie. I still do.

Knowing now what I didn't know then, I would have put all my work into a toyhauler fifth wheel. And I would have left this state while I still could.

I think that you might want to check out Trail Manor. When we looked at it, it was a well built little trailer that our vehicles could have pulled with no problem yet was easy to open and once opened looked and acted more like a fixed trailer than a popup. I could not ever catch a used one for sale. They sold too fast.

 

[Blueblaze]

To answer the above questions--

No, I don't have kids, nor do I care to take my five grandkids RV'ing. They're the destination, not the journey.

Why don't we stay in motels? Ever since we sold the Phoenix Cruiser, we do. Which is pretty much why we don't travel much anymore. It costs an arm and a leg for the privilege of sharing a bed with a thousand previous strangers. Plus, we've got a dog. And for some unknown reason, the only available room in any hotel is invariably on the top floor. As I get older, I find dragging luggage all over creation to not be as fun as it once was.

Build a garage to keep my trailer? I did for the Cruiser, back when I lived on a rural acreage in Texas. Now I live in a retirement community in Florida, and I'd have to fill in my neighbor's pool to make room for an RV garage. I think he'd complain.

Replace the existing furniture? I'd love to. For instance, there are a bunch of them out there built on the same floor plan as the Riverside Retro 135 -- big dumb dinette in the front, with a jackknife couch facing the kitchen. The armless jacknife with the 4" cushions sits over the wheelwell, so even if there was room for a DeLeon recliner to recline, you couldn't get it in there. And yes, there's plenty of room for a murphy bed where that stupid dinette sits. So where do you go to buy a murphy bed that accommodates a huge trunk underneath? The point is, I can't replace the furniture, it has to be built around the chassis. But the vendor thinks his customer is bedding down a horde of kids every night, so he gives you a dinette that converts to a queen-size collection of sofa cushions, and a bench seat from a '49 DeSoto that "jackknives" into a twin bed -- so he can brag that it "sleeps five".

I think you guys are making my point. You don't seem understand the problem any better than the manufacturers do. The target market for small, SUV-towable trailers is RETIRED COUPLES who like to travel, not youngsters with kids who like to go camping. People with kids who can afford an RV buy something much bigger, and tow it with their giant pickup that doesn't fit in their garage, either.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

To answer the above questions--

No, I don't have kids, nor do I care to take my five grandkids RV'ing. They're the destination, not the journey.

Why don't we stay in motels? Ever since we sold the Phoenix Cruiser, we do. Which is pretty much why we don't travel much anymore. It costs an arm and a leg for the privilege of sharing a bed with a thousand previous strangers. Plus, we've got a dog. And for some unknown reason, the only available room in any hotel is invariably on the top floor. As I get older, I find dragging luggage all over creation to not be as fun as it once was.

Build a garage to keep my trailer? I did for the Cruiser, back when I lived on a rural acreage in Texas. Now I live in a retirement community in Florida, and I'd have to fill in my neighbor's pool to make room for an RV garage. I think he'd complain.

Replace the existing furniture? I'd love to. For instance, there are a bunch of them out there built on the same floor plan as the Riverside Retro 135 -- big dumb dinette in the front, with a jackknife couch facing the kitchen. The armless jacknife with the 4" cushions sits over the wheelwell, so even if there was room for a DeLeon recliner to recline, you couldn't get it in there. And yes, there's plenty of room for a murphy bed where that stupid dinette sits. So where do you go to buy a murphy bed that accommodates a huge trunk underneath? The point is, I can't replace the furniture, it has to be built around the chassis. But the vendor thinks his customer is bedding down a horde of kids every night, so he gives you a dinette that converts to a queen-size collection of sofa cushions, and a bench seat from a '49 DeSoto that "jackknives" into a twin bed -- so he can brag that it "sleeps five".

I think you guys are making my point. You don't seem understand the problem any better than the manufacturers do. The target market for small, SUV-towable trailers is RETIRED COUPLES who like to travel, not youngsters with kids who like to go camping. People with kids who can afford an RV buy something much bigger, and tow it with their giant pickup that doesn't fit in their garage, either.

So their your wife's family!!!

Tired of this!!!

 

[Wemustrv]

Welcome to RVforums. from Ely, Iowa. I get that you are frustrated but you are insulting the people you are trying to get to listen to you? Also from the SUV aspect and towing. There are SUVs out there that can very easily and safely tow a travel trailer. There are full size half ton and 3/4 ton that are capable units.

 

[JBright11]

When you sold your Phoenix, what was your plan?

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

To the OP’s point, there probably is a segment of the market for this type of trailer, just not sure how big it is.
We have a 45’ coach setup for just a couple, though it can sleep 4. But the whole design, except for that hide-a-bed sofa, is for a couple.
Getting back to a target market, here is the interesting part, we have had our coach listed for sale, and the serious lookers have all walked away with one of the main issues being they wouldn’t have room to bring their grandkids along. When asked if they bring their grandkids along today in their RV that has room, they answer in the negative. But they want the OPTION to bring the grandkids along. I think for many this ability to bring others along helps justify spending the money, even if they never do it.
I have only seen one other coach with our layout with the very limited sleeping.
Based on the reactions to what we have seen when we tried to sell, I would venture to guess that there is a market for someone like the OP, but the manufacturers have found it to be a small market.
Don’t get me wrong, I love our coach and how it works for us, it is just that there doesn’t seem to be much interest for a unit with limited sleeping options.
I totally get the dislike for a dinette. We keep talking here about swapping out our dinette for an area to accommodate a desk as that is the only thing we use the dinette for, computer desk. (Our dinette has a 1.25” granite top and does NOT convert to sleeping area)

 

[Crazydog]

To answer the above questions--

No, I don't have kids, nor do I care to take my five grandkids RV'ing. They're the destination, not the journey.

Why don't we stay in motels? Ever since we sold the Phoenix Cruiser, we do. Which is pretty much why we don't travel much anymore. It costs an arm and a leg for the privilege of sharing a bed with a thousand previous strangers. Plus, we've got a dog. And for some unknown reason, the only available room in any hotel is invariably on the top floor. As I get older, I find dragging luggage all over creation to not be as fun as it once was.

Build a garage to keep my trailer? I did for the Cruiser, back when I lived on a rural acreage in Texas. Now I live in a retirement community in Florida, and I'd have to fill in my neighbor's pool to make room for an RV garage. I think he'd complain.

Replace the existing furniture? I'd love to. For instance, there are a bunch of them out there built on the same floor plan as the Riverside Retro 135 -- big dumb dinette in the front, with a jackknife couch facing the kitchen. The armless jacknife with the 4" cushions sits over the wheelwell, so even if there was room for a DeLeon recliner to recline, you couldn't get it in there. And yes, there's plenty of room for a murphy bed where that stupid dinette sits. So where do you go to buy a murphy bed that accommodates a huge trunk underneath? The point is, I can't replace the furniture, it has to be built around the chassis. But the vendor thinks his customer is bedding down a horde of kids every night, so he gives you a dinette that converts to a queen-size collection of sofa cushions, and a bench seat from a '49 DeSoto that "jackknives" into a twin bed -- so he can brag that it "sleeps five".

I think you guys are making my point. You don't seem understand the problem any better than the manufacturers do. The target market for small, SUV-towable trailers is RETIRED COUPLES who like to travel, not youngsters with kids who like to go camping. People with kids who can afford an RV buy something much bigger, and tow it with their giant pickup that doesn't fit in their garage, either.

 

[Buc]

Funnily enough, most of the retired couples I see out with RVs are in substantially bigger coaches or trailers and have lots of toys with them.

The ones that aren’t are in conversion vans. Aren’t those close to what you’re after?

We had friends stay with us for a couple of nights last month. They took a break from the bed in their Winnebago conversion to sleep in the guest bedroom in our home in an HOA community. They’re now in the Yukon heading to Alaska. Seems like a pretty solid way for a couple to travel, and they even have their mountain bikes on the back.

 

[Blueblaze]

Funnily enough, most of the retired couples I see out with RVs are in substantially bigger coaches or trailers and have lots of toys with them.

The ones that aren’t are in conversion vans. Aren’t those close to what you’re after?

We had friends stay with us for a couple of nights last month. They took a break from the bed in their Winnebago conversion to sleep in the guest bedroom in our home in an HOA community. They’re now in the Yukon heading to Alaska. Seems like a pretty solid way for a couple to travel, and they even have their mountain bikes on the back.

There are two basic requirements for any RV, large or small: A place to sleep and a place to SIT. That 2nd one is the one that every single RV builder seems completely unable to comprehend, for any RV less than 30' long.

Eating is optional -- you can eat out. Showering is optional -- you can use the one in the campground. But sitting at a cramped little dining booth on a 4" cushion, to eat your TV dinner while you crane your neck to see the TV, is so far beyond optional that it should be considered as an alternative to community service for the punishment of petty crime. And yet that punishment device is standard equipment in nearly every single RV of any type made on Planet Earth, while a simple comfortable place to sit is unheard of, in any small RV. What do you usually get for your $150K van conversion? A dinette in the back that converts to a queen-size collection of 4" sofa cushions to sleep on -- misery squared. But at least you don't have to tow a car behind it.

If I could find a class B that met those two basic requirements -- sleep and sit -- I would consider going into debt for three times the cost of my first home, to buy a self-contained vehicle that bakes in the sun at some storage lot 9 months of the year. But I'd rather have those two basic requirements met in a trailer I can pay cash for, that fits in my two-car garage next to the SUV that pulls it. Just call me weird.

 

[Crazydog]

There are two basic requirements for any RV, large or small: A place to sleep and a place to SIT. That 2nd one is the one that every single RV builder seems completely unable to comprehend, for any RV less than 30' long.

Eating is optional -- you can eat out. Showering is optional -- you can use the one in the campground. But sitting at a cramped little dining booth on a 4" cushion, to eat your TV dinner while you crane your neck to see the TV, is so far beyond optional that it should be considered as an alternative to community service for the punishment of petty crime. And yet that punishment device is standard equipment in nearly every single RV of any type made on Planet Earth, while a simple comfortable place to sit is unheard of, in any small RV. What do you usually get for your $150K van conversion? A dinette in the back that converts to a queen-size collection of 4" sofa cushions to sleep on -- misery squared. But at least you don't have to tow a car behind it.

If I could find a class B that met those two basic requirements -- sleep and sit -- I would consider going into debt for three times the cost of my first home, to buy a self-contained vehicle that bakes in the sun at some storage lot 9 months of the year. But I'd rather have those two basic requirements met in a trailer I can pay cash for, that fits in my two-car garage next to the SUV that pulls it. Just call me weird.

 

[redbaron]

There are two basic requirements for any RV, large or small: A place to sleep and a place to SIT. That 2nd one is the one that every single RV builder seems completely unable to comprehend, for any RV less than 30' long.

Eating is optional -- you can eat out. Showering is optional -- you can use the one in the campground. But sitting at a cramped little dining booth on a 4" cushion, to eat your TV dinner while you crane your neck to see the TV, is so far beyond optional that it should be considered as an alternative to community service for the punishment of petty crime. And yet that punishment device is standard equipment in nearly every single RV of any type made on Planet Earth, while a simple comfortable place to sit is unheard of, in any small RV. What do you usually get for your $150K van conversion? A dinette in the back that converts to a queen-size collection of 4" sofa cushions to sleep on -- misery squared. But at least you don't have to tow a car behind it.

If I could find a class B that met those two basic requirements -- sleep and sit -- I would consider going into debt for three times the cost of my first home, to buy a self-contained vehicle that bakes in the sun at some storage lot 9 months of the year. But I'd rather have those two basic requirements met in a trailer I can pay cash for, that fits in my two-car garage next to the SUV that pulls it. Just call me weird.

No Rv can fit in a standard garage unless it’s a pop up style. Don’t know how you missed that in my post earlier.

It just can’t happen.