Why can't RV builders figure out the small trailer market?

[Blueblaze]

To answer the above questions--

No, I don't have kids, nor do I care to take my five grandkids RV'ing. They're the destination, not the journey.

Why don't we stay in motels? Ever since we sold the Phoenix Cruiser, we do. Which is pretty much why we don't travel much anymore. It costs an arm and a leg for the privilege of sharing a bed with a thousand previous strangers. Plus, we've got a dog. And for some unknown reason, the only available room in any hotel is invariably on the top floor. As I get older, I find dragging luggage all over creation to not be as fun as it once was.

Build a garage to keep my trailer? I did for the Cruiser, back when I lived on a rural acreage in Texas. Now I live in a retirement community in Florida, and I'd have to fill in my neighbor's pool to make room for an RV garage. I think he'd complain.

Replace the existing furniture? I'd love to. For instance, there are a bunch of them out there built on the same floor plan as the Riverside Retro 135 -- big dumb dinette in the front, with a jackknife couch facing the kitchen. The armless jacknife with the 4" cushions sits over the wheelwell, so even if there was room for a DeLeon recliner to recline, you couldn't get it in there. And yes, there's plenty of room for a murphy bed where that stupid dinette sits. So where do you go to buy a murphy bed that accommodates a huge trunk underneath? The point is, I can't replace the furniture, it has to be built around the chassis. But the vendor thinks his customer is bedding down a horde of kids every night, so he gives you a dinette that converts to a queen-size collection of sofa cushions, and a bench seat from a '49 DeSoto that "jackknives" into a twin bed -- so he can brag that it "sleeps five".

I think you guys are making my point. You don't seem understand the problem any better than the manufacturers do. The target market for small, SUV-towable trailers is RETIRED COUPLES who like to travel, not youngsters with kids who like to go camping. People with kids who can afford an RV buy something much bigger, and tow it with their giant pickup that doesn't fit in their garage, either.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

To answer the above questions--

No, I don't have kids, nor do I care to take my five grandkids RV'ing. They're the destination, not the journey.

Why don't we stay in motels? Ever since we sold the Phoenix Cruiser, we do. Which is pretty much why we don't travel much anymore. It costs an arm and a leg for the privilege of sharing a bed with a thousand previous strangers. Plus, we've got a dog. And for some unknown reason, the only available room in any hotel is invariably on the top floor. As I get older, I find dragging luggage all over creation to not be as fun as it once was.

Build a garage to keep my trailer? I did for the Cruiser, back when I lived on a rural acreage in Texas. Now I live in a retirement community in Florida, and I'd have to fill in my neighbor's pool to make room for an RV garage. I think he'd complain.

Replace the existing furniture? I'd love to. For instance, there are a bunch of them out there built on the same floor plan as the Riverside Retro 135 -- big dumb dinette in the front, with a jackknife couch facing the kitchen. The armless jacknife with the 4" cushions sits over the wheelwell, so even if there was room for a DeLeon recliner to recline, you couldn't get it in there. And yes, there's plenty of room for a murphy bed where that stupid dinette sits. So where do you go to buy a murphy bed that accommodates a huge trunk underneath? The point is, I can't replace the furniture, it has to be built around the chassis. But the vendor thinks his customer is bedding down a horde of kids every night, so he gives you a dinette that converts to a queen-size collection of sofa cushions, and a bench seat from a '49 DeSoto that "jackknives" into a twin bed -- so he can brag that it "sleeps five".

I think you guys are making my point. You don't seem understand the problem any better than the manufacturers do. The target market for small, SUV-towable trailers is RETIRED COUPLES who like to travel, not youngsters with kids who like to go camping. People with kids who can afford an RV buy something much bigger, and tow it with their giant pickup that doesn't fit in their garage, either.

So their your wife's family!!!

Tired of this!!!

 

[Wemustrv]

Welcome to RVforums. from Ely, Iowa. I get that you are frustrated but you are insulting the people you are trying to get to listen to you? Also from the SUV aspect and towing. There are SUVs out there that can very easily and safely tow a travel trailer. There are full size half ton and 3/4 ton that are capable units.

 

[JBright11]

When you sold your Phoenix, what was your plan?

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

To the OP’s point, there probably is a segment of the market for this type of trailer, just not sure how big it is.
We have a 45’ coach setup for just a couple, though it can sleep 4. But the whole design, except for that hide-a-bed sofa, is for a couple.
Getting back to a target market, here is the interesting part, we have had our coach listed for sale, and the serious lookers have all walked away with one of the main issues being they wouldn’t have room to bring their grandkids along. When asked if they bring their grandkids along today in their RV that has room, they answer in the negative. But they want the OPTION to bring the grandkids along. I think for many this ability to bring others along helps justify spending the money, even if they never do it.
I have only seen one other coach with our layout with the very limited sleeping.
Based on the reactions to what we have seen when we tried to sell, I would venture to guess that there is a market for someone like the OP, but the manufacturers have found it to be a small market.
Don’t get me wrong, I love our coach and how it works for us, it is just that there doesn’t seem to be much interest for a unit with limited sleeping options.
I totally get the dislike for a dinette. We keep talking here about swapping out our dinette for an area to accommodate a desk as that is the only thing we use the dinette for, computer desk. (Our dinette has a 1.25” granite top and does NOT convert to sleeping area)

 

[Crazydog]

To answer the above questions--

No, I don't have kids, nor do I care to take my five grandkids RV'ing. They're the destination, not the journey.

Why don't we stay in motels? Ever since we sold the Phoenix Cruiser, we do. Which is pretty much why we don't travel much anymore. It costs an arm and a leg for the privilege of sharing a bed with a thousand previous strangers. Plus, we've got a dog. And for some unknown reason, the only available room in any hotel is invariably on the top floor. As I get older, I find dragging luggage all over creation to not be as fun as it once was.

Build a garage to keep my trailer? I did for the Cruiser, back when I lived on a rural acreage in Texas. Now I live in a retirement community in Florida, and I'd have to fill in my neighbor's pool to make room for an RV garage. I think he'd complain.

Replace the existing furniture? I'd love to. For instance, there are a bunch of them out there built on the same floor plan as the Riverside Retro 135 -- big dumb dinette in the front, with a jackknife couch facing the kitchen. The armless jacknife with the 4" cushions sits over the wheelwell, so even if there was room for a DeLeon recliner to recline, you couldn't get it in there. And yes, there's plenty of room for a murphy bed where that stupid dinette sits. So where do you go to buy a murphy bed that accommodates a huge trunk underneath? The point is, I can't replace the furniture, it has to be built around the chassis. But the vendor thinks his customer is bedding down a horde of kids every night, so he gives you a dinette that converts to a queen-size collection of sofa cushions, and a bench seat from a '49 DeSoto that "jackknives" into a twin bed -- so he can brag that it "sleeps five".

I think you guys are making my point. You don't seem understand the problem any better than the manufacturers do. The target market for small, SUV-towable trailers is RETIRED COUPLES who like to travel, not youngsters with kids who like to go camping. People with kids who can afford an RV buy something much bigger, and tow it with their giant pickup that doesn't fit in their garage, either.

 

[Buc]

Funnily enough, most of the retired couples I see out with RVs are in substantially bigger coaches or trailers and have lots of toys with them.

The ones that aren’t are in conversion vans. Aren’t those close to what you’re after?

We had friends stay with us for a couple of nights last month. They took a break from the bed in their Winnebago conversion to sleep in the guest bedroom in our home in an HOA community. They’re now in the Yukon heading to Alaska. Seems like a pretty solid way for a couple to travel, and they even have their mountain bikes on the back.

 

[Blueblaze]

Funnily enough, most of the retired couples I see out with RVs are in substantially bigger coaches or trailers and have lots of toys with them.

The ones that aren’t are in conversion vans. Aren’t those close to what you’re after?

We had friends stay with us for a couple of nights last month. They took a break from the bed in their Winnebago conversion to sleep in the guest bedroom in our home in an HOA community. They’re now in the Yukon heading to Alaska. Seems like a pretty solid way for a couple to travel, and they even have their mountain bikes on the back.

There are two basic requirements for any RV, large or small: A place to sleep and a place to SIT. That 2nd one is the one that every single RV builder seems completely unable to comprehend, for any RV less than 30' long.

Eating is optional -- you can eat out. Showering is optional -- you can use the one in the campground. But sitting at a cramped little dining booth on a 4" cushion, to eat your TV dinner while you crane your neck to see the TV, is so far beyond optional that it should be considered as an alternative to community service for the punishment of petty crime. And yet that punishment device is standard equipment in nearly every single RV of any type made on Planet Earth, while a simple comfortable place to sit is unheard of, in any small RV. What do you usually get for your $150K van conversion? A dinette in the back that converts to a queen-size collection of 4" sofa cushions to sleep on -- misery squared. But at least you don't have to tow a car behind it.

If I could find a class B that met those two basic requirements -- sleep and sit -- I would consider going into debt for three times the cost of my first home, to buy a self-contained vehicle that bakes in the sun at some storage lot 9 months of the year. But I'd rather have those two basic requirements met in a trailer I can pay cash for, that fits in my two-car garage next to the SUV that pulls it. Just call me weird.

 

[Crazydog]

There are two basic requirements for any RV, large or small: A place to sleep and a place to SIT. That 2nd one is the one that every single RV builder seems completely unable to comprehend, for any RV less than 30' long.

Eating is optional -- you can eat out. Showering is optional -- you can use the one in the campground. But sitting at a cramped little dining booth on a 4" cushion, to eat your TV dinner while you crane your neck to see the TV, is so far beyond optional that it should be considered as an alternative to community service for the punishment of petty crime. And yet that punishment device is standard equipment in nearly every single RV of any type made on Planet Earth, while a simple comfortable place to sit is unheard of, in any small RV. What do you usually get for your $150K van conversion? A dinette in the back that converts to a queen-size collection of 4" sofa cushions to sleep on -- misery squared. But at least you don't have to tow a car behind it.

If I could find a class B that met those two basic requirements -- sleep and sit -- I would consider going into debt for three times the cost of my first home, to buy a self-contained vehicle that bakes in the sun at some storage lot 9 months of the year. But I'd rather have those two basic requirements met in a trailer I can pay cash for, that fits in my two-car garage next to the SUV that pulls it. Just call me weird.

 

[redbaron]

There are two basic requirements for any RV, large or small: A place to sleep and a place to SIT. That 2nd one is the one that every single RV builder seems completely unable to comprehend, for any RV less than 30' long.

Eating is optional -- you can eat out. Showering is optional -- you can use the one in the campground. But sitting at a cramped little dining booth on a 4" cushion, to eat your TV dinner while you crane your neck to see the TV, is so far beyond optional that it should be considered as an alternative to community service for the punishment of petty crime. And yet that punishment device is standard equipment in nearly every single RV of any type made on Planet Earth, while a simple comfortable place to sit is unheard of, in any small RV. What do you usually get for your $150K van conversion? A dinette in the back that converts to a queen-size collection of 4" sofa cushions to sleep on -- misery squared. But at least you don't have to tow a car behind it.

If I could find a class B that met those two basic requirements -- sleep and sit -- I would consider going into debt for three times the cost of my first home, to buy a self-contained vehicle that bakes in the sun at some storage lot 9 months of the year. But I'd rather have those two basic requirements met in a trailer I can pay cash for, that fits in my two-car garage next to the SUV that pulls it. Just call me weird.

No Rv can fit in a standard garage unless it’s a pop up style. Don’t know how you missed that in my post earlier.

It just can’t happen.

 

[Blueblaze]

Any small RV COULD fit into a standard garage if anyone cared to make one. As I pointed out in the post that started this thread, the problem is RV BUILDERS CAN'T FIGURE OUT THE SMALL TRAILER MARKET.

How does one build a trailer to fit in a garage? Exactly how I described it in a later post that you I guess you didn't read.

The average American is 5'8" tall. The average garage door is 7'6" tall. That's 22" to work with. Here's a crazy idea -- you could start by choosing a $300 window A/C instead of a $2000 roof unit.

Seriously, I don't care if my head touches the ceiling, if it saves me $1000/year in storage costs. I suspect I'm not the only one. Nobody needs a foot of headroom to warm up a TV dinner and watch TV after long day on the road -- during that one month a year that the average RV owner actually uses his rig.

But you're right, RedBaron. There is no RV made today that fits in a garage that's not a glorified tent. However, you can build one from a 6x12 utility trailer. You'll get a tandem-axle all-aluminum trailer that's built like a tank, and yet weighs half what your typical generic rolling dinette weighs. Here's my plan. By they way, it's got a 6' ceiling.

 

[redbaron]

THe market that seems closets to what you are looking for is the overland market. That segment creates trailers that do not conform to RVIA standards and allow things like "shorter living spaces" and wall / window based air conditioners. Most of the overland trailers do fit in a garage, and most of them started their life as a Harbor Freight trailer.

The Ultimate Guide to Off-Road Trailers

The Premium Resource Guide for Anyone looking to purchase an Off-Road Trailers or Overland Trailers for their Adventures. Enjoy the guide!

theadventureportal.com

8 Campers That Fit In a Garage [And You Can Stand Up In]

Explore 8 spacious campers that easily fit in garages while offering standing room. Find your compact camping haven now!

www.rvingknowhow.com

 

[Blueblaze]

It's like they made a video just to illustrate my point. THEY JUST DON'T GET IT!

One glorified tent after another, each set in a beautiful wilderness location -- and about as relevant to this market segment as a 3rd nipple. They've invented a dozen ways to raise the roof to 8', using an impossible-to-air-condition mesh screen. Some genius even invented a fold-up hard-side tent, where your kitchen is also your bathroom and your shower is the wild outdoors. And in every stinking one of them, what do you find? That same stupid DINETTE, trying to pass off a 3" cushion as both your bed and your easy chair.

It's so pathetic it brings a tear to the eye. In desperation, I even went to look at a couple of them recently. When I asked the Aliner guy to show me a trailer where I didn't have to shower outdoors, he proudly raised a shower curtain in the middle of the kitchen, cleverly hidden under a trap door in the floor! When I wasn't impressed, he then showed me the "Little Guy" rolling-dinette-in-a-teardrop, cleverly designed to fit a foot of headroom and a rooftop A/C under an 8' garage door -- by giving me 5" of ground clearance. So we looked at a bigger "Retro" that definitely wouldn't fit in a garage and would probably be a nightmare to tow with an SUV. Get this -- it had SEPARATE sewer connections for grey water vs black! Have you ever seen a campground with two sewer connections? What idiot would design such a thing? And what did I find inside? The same standard dinette trying to pass for a bed, sitting next to a jack-knife bench seat, straight out of a '47 DeSoto! Seriously -- who gives these guys the money to build these silly contraptions? All this cleverness wasted, just to keep my head from touching the ceiling? WHY?

RedBaron, I know these little trailers aren't your kind of RV. But can you at least see the point I'm trying to make?

 

[bpaikman]

I will chimb in about the sleeper sofa. The one we have in our motorhome is it ugliest, most impractical, and uncomfortable thing I’ve ever seen. We never used it again after the first time. Because it stretches out length-wise across the motorhome, so even with slide-outs on both sides, it completely blocks off the area if set up. You have to climb over the bed to go outside. we looked into replacing it with a jackknife sofa and got a price quote $4000 installed. we decided, since we only have a 3rd person in emergencies, (twice in 3 years) we could buy a very nice air mattress set up instead..
now we only use the sofa as a sofa, and I have to say it still a very uncomfortable sofa for tall people - it seems to be a little short depth-wise: we end up with just one person using it, and turning sideways to support their legs. No, personally, I like our dining area - we have a table and chairs instead of a dinette and it doubles as a desk and vanity.
However, we would much prefer two comfortable recliners with tables that could be swung up in front of them for meals and desk work. that would free up the current dining area for storage, additional seating, fold-out bed, whatever.

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

Sounds like you have a very specific set of requirements.
A custom build, as you sketched out, is probably your best option.