New member says hi and I have some questions!

[Tioga Bob]

I have a 2008 Tioga Ranger 26Q E450 V10 gas that wandered so bad almost sold it but spent lots of time, money and effort and she is now steady on the road. The real issue now is I have sold my tow vehicle, a 4300 lb Jeep and now have a built up JKUR that is a hefty 6400 lb! I towed it on a short camping trip and It tows fine but I know the total gross weight and the towing capacity of the RV and hitch is probably exceeded

My project at this time is beefing up the rear frame of the coach and installing a stronger hitch. I will post up questions and hope to confirm that I can flat 4 tow this weighty Jeep with my class C.

In advance thanks for your interest and comments I appreciate it.

Tioga Bob

On a local camping trip towed the new Jeep and all went well but...

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

Welcome to RVF, @Tioga Bob; glad to have you join us here.

I don't know the specifics of the GVWR and GCVWR for the 2008 Tioga, but do understand that the hitch rating is only part of the equation. Another important consideration is braking capacity of the coach. Weight is an important part of that as well, as in overall handling. And, transmission capacity in the coach also enters into the picture. Be sure you have a full understanding of what is involved in exceeding the manufacturer's ratings.

TJ

 

[Tioga Bob]

Thank you TJ&LadyDi for the response.

I definitely agree and I am a safety advocate too. I am in the midst of researching towing a 6400 lb Jeep behind my Class C. I know it is done but you are right there are limitations that need to be considered. At this point I am hoping to get the confirming information that I can tow this Jeep in-spit of the limitations mentioned. I already have towed this Jeep and had no trouble, even in the mountains. My seat of the pants opinion is the RV is very capable and is not straining the engine or drive train. Based on experience braking is the least of my issues.

The opinion of some on the net is the real limitation of E450 Class C towing is the rear frame structure and hitch. That is what I'm focusing on at the moment.

One thing I have noted, lots of comments about the limitations of brakes, suspension, tires, transmission, engines but it is mostly a vague warning from those without detailed experience or actual data. Some suggest the gross weight listed on the rigs are lower limits written by lawyers rather than engineers.

I am hoping that someone with experience beefing up an Class C RV tail end and hitch will post up some information. I did call a local shop here in Reno that is into fabrication and setting up tow vehicles. So next week will head on down, get the RV weighed and let the shop pros inspect and provide advice.

Tioga Bob

 

[NWIP]

My first thought when reading was 2 concerns, braking capabilities and transmission of your RV. Will the transmission be able to handle the extra weight and maintain reliability? Do your research and remember that just because it seems like it can handle it doesn’t mean you should. Lots of extra wear and tear

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Do yah want the Pie after Tom stuck his dirty thumb in it?

You can do almost anything if you have the facilities to do it. No one will pay you for your investment in the RV after you are through modifying it. I hauled a catalina 30 sailboat behind a 1 ton dodge van a couple of times, so yah you can do it. Will you have an engineer re-cert the rig so you can legally haul more than it was built for? Will you give up the added weight in steel from gear you would haul normally?

Yes the frame joint where they added to the truck frame to support a longer load is a weak point. I have known a few that tried hauling a MC on the bumper that had the frame break on class A's of the 90' era.

My opinion... You can drive the Jeep across country for less than you can beef up the RV and mess with Certs at the Gov level. But then You know what they say about Opinions.

 

[Tioga Bob]

Well said and my wife agrees with you and and already told me that she would drive the Jeep.

Just saying I'm generally not someone that would overload or stress a machine. Your points are shared by placards on the RV... but those placards posting max weights don't specify what is the limiting factor thus the transmission and engine is a speculation. I'll argue my point here, not to be argumentative but in the hopes of finding actual data to confirm this should not be done or can be done.

I may be wrong and since I am just starting the research on this "beefing up the tail of the RV" I have posted here asking those with more knowledge. That said if you have experience or real data that the transmission or the engine can't handle 6400 lbs on a flat 4 tow please provide it. Excuse my statements if they appear arrogant I'm actually trying to get firm data not hearsay or speculation. I don't have the data but have read a pickup with this engine has a greater towing capacity by a lot than what the placard permits on this RV. A truck mechanic told me that trucks having the same engine/transmission as this RV haul much more weight it's the chassie that makes that possible.

Here is a company that fabricates the beefed up Class C RV. Torklift Central | Services




I haven't called them yet but their Utube video got me started on this idea. Hopefully I haven't come off wrong and others that have advice with some experience, examples and data will post up as I haven't done a thing yet and if get concrete reason can abandon this venture.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

Not to be argumentative, @Tioga Bob, but you already have the "real data." The coach manufacturer spent a ton of money on engineering to determine the coach tow ratings.

I doubt that you will ever find definitive information on just one single factor like transmission capability, etc. All factors work together; there won't be a single factor. And comparing the towing capacity of a pickup with the same engine to your coach overlooks the fact that your coach likely weighs significantly more than the pickup.

Rest assured that coach manufacturers would love to have higher tow ratings as it would give them a marketing advantage over the competition. Science-based engineering just can't support it.

TJ

 

[Kevin D Pem]

I haven't called them yet but their Utube video got me started on this idea. Hopefully I haven't come off wrong and others that have advice with some experience, examples and data will post up as I haven't done a thing yet and if get concrete reason can abandon this venture.

Not at all @Tioga Bob , we learn by asking. Just remember that it is about more than capacity. Consider that the body on a motor home is nothing like on a real truck. Frame twist and flex can adversely affect The RV body. Some truck bodies offer more strength than an RV box will. I can imagine panels popping loose as you go down the road. The van I used above had much lower tow capacity than a truck similarly built. The reason, uni-body. I built up the back end to accommodate a penal hook using 1/2 inch plate steel that ran up the frame for good purchase with no bumper. Like I said, of course you can. What I didn't tell you was after I relocated the boat I sold the van for 500 dollars because the cooling system was not up to the job and overheated seriously. The trans was OK it was the weak 3 speed/ overdrive common on dodge products in 91' I would have thought the trans was going to be the problem, but the cooling system is what gave up the ghost causing serious engine problems after the fact.

Although I like to say the trans is the weak link, The number of vehicles along the side of the road on hills probably indicate that the cooling system is not up to par.

I have done many things that left the rest of the world wondering about my sanity, but alas I am still alive after retiring over 15 years ago.

 

["EZ"]

Since you have an E450 and not an E350 I think you should be OK as long as you look at the hitch and frame connections to make sure they are up to par. The 450 is about 16,000 GVW and has a larger engine, transmission, frame axels, and brakes than the 350 does. We use F450's to make wreckers out of every day. I sold about 1000 of them a year from 2003 to 2008 before I went to selling Ram Trucks. They are towing one car or truck at a time with a wheel lift OR the are towing 2 cars at a time as a roll back bed with a wheel lift. The brakes are capable. The V-10 engine is capable. The transmission is fine. You're not going to hurt them. Just make sure you reinforce the frame and hitch area if needed.

FYI the Max Towing on a Ram 4500 (same as the Ford F450 or E450) with 120" CA is 18.500 lbs. (CA is the measurement from the back of the cab to the centerline of the rear axle. This measurement determines the length of the body you can install. In a class 4 vehicle a 120" CA is about the longest frame available. It will support a 16' to a 19' body depending on the body type.) I'm sure the Ford E450 or F450 is about the same. They are all Class 4 commercial vehicles. The tow ratings include the frame, axles, engine, transmission, brakes, tires, and hitch. The weakest link determines the GVW or GCVW and the Max Tow Rating. The 450 shares many of the same components with the 550. Same engine, same trans, same frame rail, etc. But the front axle may be smaller or the brakes may be slightly smaller. If the axles are different then the tires would also be heavier on the 550 more than likely. Regardless, the 450 you have is a commercial chassis. It could have a wrecker body on it or a dry freight van body, or an enclosed service body or a camper body! It doesn't matter. The chassis is the same. The RV has the same drive train and suspensions as the other trucks or vans with other bodies on them. The chassis doesn't care what it is. Weight it weight. Whether it is furniture and cabinets or tools and equipment. Its all the same to the chassis. Your E450 will do a ton of work. Just make sure the end of the frame and the hitch are up to spec.

One other thing when flat towing. Make sure you use an auxillary brake system for your Jeep. If the hitch fails or if the Jeep comes off the tow bar you don't want it running wild down the highway at 60-70 MPH and killing someone. I use the Air Force One brake system for my Jeep Grand Cherokee and Ram 1500 when flat towing. But my Class A has air brakes so you may have to get a different model brake system for your E450 with the hydraulic brakes.

Good luck! And let us know what you wind up with.

 

[Tioga Bob]

Edit: Just notices "EZ's" post... Excellent fact oriented comments, Thank you BTW I have the RVi3 brake system, blue ox tow bar and all the safety cables and a very beefed up attachment on the Jeep.

"EZ" has come up with the goods but will let this previously posted comment ride.

Appreciate your replies but we are still in the realm of speculation. If you google Class C RV towing a JKU Jeep there are a number of videos showing this is done with no fuss. They maybe oblivious to the limitations and just doing it but they are doing it.

I see Class C RV's towing Jeeps and the heavier JKU Rubicons all the time. Remember towing with 4 wheels on the ground is not stressing the tow vehicle like an equally weighted trailer or boat.

We got a good deal on this RV and have used it to tour Alaska, the American west and southwest. We have got our moneys worth. We would only use this RV towing the Jeep maybe 3 times a year to drive to Moab or some place in the west. Park and use the Jeep on trails and the tow home. So you could say this will be use in a limited way. As to recovering cost with modifying the RV vs buying a new RV, it is a no brainer, a new RV would be much more expressive than this modification.

Again I really appreciate your engaging comments and not trying to be argumentative but trying to get down past the speculation and to the facts of beefing up the tail end and towing this 6400 lb Jeep with reasonable safety and being competent with the real limits of the RV. So far the jury's still out.

 

["EZ"]

Not at all @Tioga Bob , we learn by asking. Just remember that it is about more than capacity. Consider that the body on a motor home is nothing like on a real truck. Frame twist and flex can adversely affect The RV body. Some truck bodies offer more strength than an RV box will. I can imagine panels popping loose as you go down the road. The van I used above had much lower tow capacity than a truck similarly built. The reason, uni-body. I built up the back end to accommodate a penal hook using 1/2 inch plate steel that ran up the frame for good purchase with no bumper. Like I said, of course you can. What I didn't tell you was after I relocated the boat I sold the van for 500 dollars because the cooling system was not up to the job and overheated seriously. The trans was OK it was the weak 3 speed/ overdrive common on dodge products in 91' I would have thought the trans was going to be the problem, but the cooling system is what gave up the ghost causing serious engine problems after the fact.

Although I like to say the trans is the weak link, The number of vehicles along the side of the road on hills probably indicate that the cooling system is not up to par.

I have done many things that left the rest of the world wondering about my sanity, but alas I am still alive after retiring over 15 years ago.

Kevin, you are exactly right. Most people don't consider the cooling system when modifying a vehicle to do heavier work. And towing will QUICKLY find the weak link........usually the cooling system or the transmission. The next weakest link would be the brakes. But that isn't usually found out until AFTER the wreck!!

This is a REALLY big problem with the Ram Commercial trucks that I sell. The problem isn't the truck. It's great. The problem is the Cummins engine. That Cummins engine will pull ANYTHING you hook behind it!!! And these guys know that. I always ask what type of business the guy is in and what he is going to use the truck for and what he will be towing. I want to make sure the guy is buying the RIGHT truck. Most sales people won't ask because they are afraid of losing the sale. Not me. I'm a sales professional. I've been doing this for 30 years. I know it's MUCH easier to figure all this out BEFORE the sale than it is to have an unhappy customer with a truck that won't do the job or getting sued because I sold him the wrong truck.

I told a guy a few years ago NOT TO BUY my Ram 5500. I told him it wasn't enough truck. I suggested a Freightliner FL60 or an International (class 6 truck) with air brakes. He INSISTED on buying the Ram 5500 (class 5 truck). A month later he calls me and wants me to come to the KMart parking lot (Kmart was closed so the lot was empty). I drove the truck and there was a terrible popping noise coming from the rear end. He was yelling at me wanting me to do something!!! (lol) I took it to the shop and Ram rejected the warranty claim saying all the spyder gears were shattered because the customer overloaded the truck. Luckily the customer was friends with one of our mechanics and had sent pics of his truck hauling a 40' gooseneck trailer with 12 pallets of sod and a Track Hoe and a Bobcat on it. I'd say it was 20,000 lbs over weight. I told him I had seen the pics. He begged me to help him. I called Ram and convinced them to fix the guys truck. They sent a COMPLETE rear axle from brake drum to brake drum on a pallet and we bolted it in. I convinced the customer to trade the truck to me and go buy a Freightliner like I told him. He was very happy I got the rear axle replaced under warranty and admitted I was right that he bought the wrong truck. Moral to the story is to buy the right class of truck chassis for the job you will be doing. Otherwise the weak link will jump up and bite you!

 

["EZ"]

Edit: Just notices "EZ's" post... Excellent fact oriented comments, Thank you BTW I have the RVi3 brake system, blue ox tow bar and all the safety cables and a very beefed up attachment on the Jeep.

Appreciate your replies but we are still in the realm of speculation. If you google Class C RV towing a JKU Jeep there are a number of videos showing this is done with no fuss. They maybe oblivious to the limitations and just doing it but they are doing it.

I see Class C RV's towing Jeeps and the heavier JKU Rubicons all the time. Remember towing with 4 wheels on the ground is not stressing the tow vehicle like an equally weighted trailer or boat.

We got a good deal on this RV and have used it to tour Alaska, the American west and southwest. We have got our moneys worth. We would only use this RV towing the Jeep maybe 3 times a year to drive to Moab or some place in the west. Park and use the Jeep on trails and the tow home. So you could say this will be use in a limited way. As to recovering cost with modifying the RV vs buying a new RV, it is a no brainer, a new RV would be much more expressive than this modification.

Again I really appreciate your engaging comments and not trying to be argumentative but trying to get down past the speculation and to the facts of beefing up the tail end and towing this 6400 lb Jeep with reasonable safety and being competent with the real limits of the RV. So far the jury's still out.

Bob. There is no speculation. You CAN do what you are trying to do. All you need to know is that you have a class 4 vehicle (E450). This tells you all the components of the vehicle are up to the job. The ONLY thing you need to do is have a fab shop put the correct class 4 hitch on it (hitch classes are rated differently than truck chassis. A 2" opening on the reciever is fine. No need for the 2 5/16 opening of a class 5 hitch) and make sure they reinforce the hitch attachment points on the frame. My shop installs over 1500 hitches a year on Ram, Chevy, Ford commercial chassis. I know this will work if you have an auxillary brake system for the Jeep.

See chart hitch_class1.jpg (991×1200) (torkliftcentral.com)

 

["EZ"]

Bob. There is no speculation. You CAN do what you are trying to do. All you need to know is that you have a class 4 vehicle (E450). This tells you all the components of the vehicle are up to the job. The ONLY thing you need to do is have a fab shop put the correct class 4 hitch on it (hitch classes are rated differently than truck chassis. A 2" opening on the reciever is fine. No need for the 2 5/16 opening of a class 5 hitch) and make sure they reinforce the hitch attachment points on the frame. My shop installs over 1500 hitches a year on Ram, Chevy, Ford commercial chassis. I know this will work if you have an auxillary brake system for the Jeep.

See chart hitch_class1.jpg (991×1200) (torkliftcentral.com)

One thing we do to REALLY make the hitch strong is to take the square tube of the receiver hitch and make sure it is going through the flat steel brackets that weld to the frame. See pic here 1801050_45.jpg (600×462) (buyersproducts.com) Notice how this one just welds the square tube to the flat brackets but the square tube doesn't go THROUGH the flat steel brackets?? See pic here..... 15324_1024x768_a.jpg (1024×1024) (curtmfg.com) The hitch is being held in place ONLY by the welds done this way.
If the square tube goes THROUGH the flat steel; brackets then if the weight pulling on the hitch is too heavy it would literally have to rip the square tube THROUGH the flat steel bracket. I have pics of what that looks like too. lol. My customers are ALWAYS overloading their trailers. Pulling your Jeep with all 4 wheels rolling will be very light weight compared to the class 5 hitches we use that are getting ripped apart by companies overloading their 40' gooseneck trailers with bull dozers and track hoes and similar equipment. A class 4 receiver hitch will be very safe for 12,000 lbs. Your Jeep doesn't even come close.

 

[Tioga Bob]

Thank you "EZ" just the information I need. I appreciate you posting up and sharing your expertise.

I have a shop visit Tuesday and will have a much better understanding of what I need with the information you provided.

 

["EZ"]

Thank you "EZ" just the information I need. I appreciate you posting up and sharing your expertise.

I have a shop visit Tuesday and will have a much better understanding of what I need with the information you provided.

Let me know if you have any questions. I'll be glad to help.

 

[AbdRahim]

The other thing to consider is it may take time before something actually fails as a result. That being said, I would not want the legal liability if an accident were to occur (maybe not attributable to your vehicle) and you have to face a lawyer, in court, who discovers your vehicle was over its legal limits. And, of course the insurance company who will not cover a vehicle so modified. Many things to consider.

 

["EZ"]

The other thing to consider is it may take time before something actually fails as a result. That being said, I would not want the legal liability if an accident were to occur (maybe not attributable to your vehicle) and you have to face a lawyer, in court, who discovers your vehicle was over its legal limits. And, of course the insurance company who will not cover a vehicle so modified. Many things to consider.

It's a class 4 commercial chassis. Most class 4 chassis have an 18,500 lb. Towing Rating. Not sure about RV's because I'm in the commercial truck industry and not the RV industry but even if they de-rated class 4 RV towing ratings for some reason from 18,500 lbs. to say 12,000 lbs. it would still be TWICE the capacity he needs for his 6000 lb. Jeep. With these kind of safety margins I think he's OK as long as a competent hitch installer does his job correctly.

 

[Tioga Bob]

Let me know if you have any questions. I'll be glad to help.

What a great forum thanks "EZ" for the solid information and thank you everyone sharing your thoughts and knowledge.

I will keep in mind the cautions and issues and will do my best to try to do the right thing. I will start a thread on this build and keep you informed.

 

[PartTimeRVer]

Hello Tioga Bob, I see you have a lot of great information here. I drive a 25' Thor and tow a ram 1500 4x4. This is a 5700lb vehicle. I can haul this up the Cajon Pass in California without an issue. I have weighed both my motorhome loaded with fuel, water and everything I drag along. I weighed the truck with fuel. I am well withing my GVWR.
Most states will require a vehicle that large to have its own seperate breaking system and break away system as I am sure you are aware. I would also add a trac bar if you do not have one already. Your question is can it be done? Sure, if you throw enough money at it. You mentioned your wife is willing to be a chase vehicle and that is a great idea. Wish my wife would 6400 lbs is a lot of weight. I could still haul this right now as I have room but would be right at my limit. I have a 8k tow hitch and use 10k tow bar. I always go overboard with what I can haul.

 

[Tioga Bob]

Hello Tioga Bob, I see you have a lot of great information here. I drive a 25' Thor and tow a ram 1500 4x4. This is a 5700lb vehicle. I can haul this up the Cajon Pass in California without an issue. I have weighed both my motorhome loaded with fuel, water and everything I drag along. I weighed the truck with fuel. I am well withing my GVWR.
Most states will require a vehicle that large to have its own seperate breaking system and break away system as I am sure you are aware. I would also add a trac bar if you do not have one already. Your question is can it be done? Sure, if you throw enough money at it. You mentioned your wife is willing to be a chase vehicle and that is a great idea. Wish my wife would 6400 lbs is a lot of weight. I could still haul this right now as I have room but would be right at my limit. I have a 8k tow hitch and use 10k tow bar. I always go overboard with what I can haul.

Hey PartTimeRVer,
I have added track bars, stronger sway bars, front end work to the RV and she handles well now. Tires are fairly new and brakes have been checked as good. Engine and transmission are working excellent and milage is relatively low. All the fluids are changed on time. I do have all the required tow paraphernalia including an RVi3. We have towed a 4300 lb TJ around the west for several years and have experience with towing. I'm have a fair amount of mechanical experience and awareness and keep the rig in good running shape. We pack our rig light and understand the weight issues.

Notable facts for the build I propose. Below is the manufacturers stats for the 31 foot version of my model. My RV is a 26 footer and interestingly my GVWR placard is listed as the same. My rig is sure to be lighter as I have 5 feet less structure at the back. That give me more tow capacity wieght wise. Also the 26 foot rig's frame extension is shorter than the one listed and probably handles the stress for towing better. The tow capacity is listed as 5k and I'm wanting to go only 1600 more lbs. My plan to add frame support and an upgraded hitch makes this idea of towing my Jeep a good possibility to be within the proper weight and safety issues.

I have 3 shops now that I have talked to but everyone is shutting down for the holidays so this job will be delayed until January. All the shops say this job is not unusual and relatively standard work. I am feeling confident this is going to work and work well.

Specs for 2008 Fleetwood - Tioga Ranger
Floorplan: 31W
(Class C)​

Towing Capacity 5,000 lbs
GVWR 14,050 lbs.

PIC - Camping in the Alabama Hills near Lone Pine in the Eastern Sierra, Mount Whitney in the back ground

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