Buying from a dealer or private owner?

[Jireh Financial]

Sometimes when you finance through a dealer they get a kickback from the bank for giving them business. This give the dealer “wiggle room” if you’re really trying to knock down the price.
I did that a couple times to get the deal then 15-30 days later paid off the loan. Sometimes the dealer gets a bit made because the bank won’t give them the kickback because of the quick payoff.

It's not that the bank doesn't give it out, they charge it back. That also depends on if the bank pays reserve at funding or the following month. They all have programs. Chargeback periods can vary from 180 days all the way to 365 days.
Just saying.
Ken

 

[Bigblockyeti]

I know everyone doesn't have the time, knowledge, and facilities to perform much maintenance. In that case, expect to pay and pay dearly, and wait and wait until it's done. Nothing moves fast these days.

Bob

Man you've got that right. It seems everything is through the roof and half (or a third) the quality it used to be. I'd much rather have no warranty for less money, I do all my own work too, others' definition of "good" often falls far short of what I consider good. This is one of the reasons I'm interested in the COD toy hauler, I know I'll have to fix it going in and the price reflects that. The biggest problem is it's a bit too heavy and would necessitate shopping for a larger tow vehicle which is at 1.5-2x prices now depending on if new or used. It's almost enough to make me consider a salvage title truck too!

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Well, I've been doing more and more research and it certainly seems a private seller is the way to go, seems it would save ~20% off an identical TT on a dealer's lot. The more research I do, the more questions are raised but watching videos and folks in the know highlighting specific features has allowed me to put together a list of wants, but first are my hard numbers.
I have to have:

1. Sleeping for 6
2. empty weight under 5200 (this is arbitrary knowing my tow limit is 6100 and empty is never really empty)
3. Something we as a family can grow in for at least 5 years.

From a space standpoint it seems a hybrid with three fold out queen beds would be great but I like quiet, dark & warm so that criteria could be a limiting factor, I dunno? A quad bunk house with a slide and four 38" x 75" beds would be awesome but likely heavy with a second slide and even a murphy bed up front. I've seen some that are close but don't check all those criteria.
My wants:

1. Frameless windows
2. Outdoor kitchen w/mini fridge
3. LED lighting under awning
4. Walk on roof
5. Porcelain toilet
6. Variable speed, high quality roof vent fans
7. Aluminum framing
8. Torsion beam axles
9. Slide topper cover(s)
10. 3 burner range
11. 10-11cuft. fridge
12. Fiberglass sides
13. Hardwood cabinet doors w/hidden hinges
14. Undermount stainless sink
15. GVWR <6500lbs.
16. UVW <4500lbs. w/4000lbs. being ideal
17. Model year 2014 - 2019
18. $12,000 - $18,000

There's a LOT in that year range and price range but nothing that yet checks all those boxes and I suspect there won't be, I just have to find something that checks the most, is the newest, best built and least expensive. rvusa.com has a wonderful collection of specs for every year make and model I've looked at so far and rvtrader.com will allow me to specify some of the criteria I'm looking for, but certainly not all. It seems like the more research I do, the deeper the rabbit hole gets regarding what's out there. I really wish try some of these out without spending an arm and a leg, I know outdoorsy has rentals, but they're limited and some you can't tow, many are pushing $200/day after taxes & insurance so as little as 5 days has chopped away 5+% of what I have to spend. I wish the perfect TT would just land in my driveway!

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Well, I've been doing more and more research and it certainly seems a private seller is the way to go, seems it would save ~20% off an identical TT on a dealer's lot. The more research I do, the more questions are raised but watching videos and folks in the know highlighting specific features has allowed me to put together a list of wants, but first are my hard numbers.
I have to have:

1. Sleeping for 6
2. empty weight under 5200 (this is arbitrary knowing my tow limit is 6100 and empty is never really empty)
3. Something we as a family can grow in for at least 5 years.

From a space standpoint it seems a hybrid with three fold out queen beds would be great but I like quiet, dark & warm so that criteria could be a limiting factor, I dunno? A quad bunk house with a slide and four 38" x 75" beds would be awesome but likely heavy with a second slide and even a murphy bed up front. I've seen some that are close but don't check all those criteria.
My wants:

1. Frameless windows
2. Outdoor kitchen w/mini fridge
3. LED lighting under awning
4. Walk on roof
5. Porcelain toilet
6. Variable speed, high quality roof vent fans
7. Aluminum framing
8. Torsion beam axles
9. Slide topper cover(s)
10. 3 burner range
11. 10-11cuft. fridge
12. Fiberglass sides
13. Hardwood cabinet doors w/hidden hinges
14. Undermount stainless sink
15. GVWR <6500lbs.
16. UVW <4500lbs. w/4000lbs. being ideal
17. Model year 2014 - 2019
18. $12,000 - $18,000

There's a LOT in that year range and price range but nothing that yet checks all those boxes and I suspect there won't be, I just have to find something that checks the most, is the newest, best built and least expensive. rvusa.com has a wonderful collection of specs for every year make and model I've looked at so far and rvtrader.com will allow me to specify some of the criteria I'm looking for, but certainly not all. It seems like the more research I do, the deeper the rabbit hole gets regarding what's out there. I really wish try some of these out without spending an arm and a leg, I know outdoorsy has rentals, but they're limited and some you can't tow, many are pushing $200/day after taxes & insurance so as little as 5 days has chopped away 5+% of what I have to spend. I wish the perfect TT would just land in my driveway!

You have quite a list!

The advice of an old fart!

Buy your toys from a private source that appears not to turn items for profit, BECAUSE! They have a harder time lying, and are easier to read.

You will find more love in your heart for others when you accept their imperfections.

And!

You will find more joy in your possessions, when you realize they are not everything you wanted, but they make you happy!

 

[Bob K4TAX]

Based on your tow limit of 6100 lbs, I would strongly suggest that you consider a TT with a gross weight of under 6100 lbs. Empty weight is a number that should NOT be considered in making a choice.

The towing rule I'm accustomed to is; (A) use only 80% of the vehicle tow capacity. (B) Tounge weight should be 10% to 15% of the gross trailer weight.

Bob

 

[Gloria H.]

I've been shopping for everything under the sun that I can tow with my current truck and will allow all of us to sleep comfortably in. Prices are all over the place, quality is all over the place and so are amenities offered by different makes and models. I'm still not yet set on anything but I am doing more research on what's come up locally that looks like it could be a good fit. We a couple hours last Saturday poking around the new and used lot at the local Camping World, a sales person was unavailable so we were let to our own accord allowing us to peruse a little bit of everything. I didn't realize what a blessing being able to check everything out on our own was. Yesterday I went to another large, local dealership with an appointment with a specific sales person and a specific TT. The experience was unpleasant to say the least, my sleeping accomodations and max weight are highly inflexible but I was promised before my arrival they had several TT that would fit my criteria, they did not. They had only the one that I initially found that was close then I was shown several more that I can't safely pull with my rig and were not the close to the floorplan I was looking for. Then came the issue of price, I'm not concerned with spending good money for well built TT that fits our family and I haven't the need nor desire to finance it. The closest thing we could come up with was $35.9K which I was comfortable with (maybe, if this will fit us) and I was immediately pushed about financing and what I'd like to put down. I told them I'd like to put down $35.9K and finance it for ~15 seconds. I don't know if it's more about the money aspect than actually selling RV's & TT's but it seemed far more important than the camper itself. I was told "What if you just put down $10K then financed the rest with a zero penalty early payoff?" "Sure" I said, giving him my credit score from my last "check up" as I didn't trust them with a "soft pull" or anything else they could damage with my SS#. He came back with "great news, you should be $349 - $399/month" again this would be theoretically financing $25.9K and I asked for how long, kind of an important question in my book. They actually had to go check and get this - 144 months, 12 years! That would require an intereste rate of between 12.6% with total interest charges of $24,450 and 15.7% with total interest charges of $31,760. This is absolutely ludacris to me that anyone would offer this or even moreso that someone would actually agree to this. Is it just me or is this a real thing that actually happens?

FWIW, I'm not a money person, that's my wife, I'm just an engineer but basic interest coming or going is something I've got a pretty good understanding of.

We definitely ended up choosing a private seller and saved thousands of unnecessary dealer charges. Try rvtrader.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Well, I must be a glutton for punishment because I went back to Ultimate RV with an alleged appointment time with the same salesman I met with last time (I appreciate his time and if I end up buying from them want to be sure he gets the commission) and he is off today. So I met with a woman who seemed to better understand what I was looking for and the hard numbers I'm dealing with, specifically around number it can sleep and maximum weight. They didn't have the 2014 Jay Feather Ultra Lite X23F their website claimed but she showed me a few different new and used TT that sort of fit what I was looking for but none checked more than about half my wants list. The 2017 Dutchmen Kodiak Ultra-Lite 206ES came close but even though it was only 6 year old, it already had 15 years of wear and wasn't yet cleaned from being traded in. The tax (~$900), inspection ($995) & destination charge ($1195 & WTF it's used!) quickly jacked the price up more than 15% beyond the $19,999 asking price. The saleswoman was very pleasant and easier to understand (I'm mostly deaf in lower frequencies) than the previous guy but the sales pressure was very real, just like last time getting the manager involved after ~5 minutes of back and forth. I let them know I'm less than two weeks into my shopping journey and unless a screaming deal comes along (just found out hybrids existed four days ago), it will certainly take more than a month, possibly two for the right unit that fits my family to come along.

The 6500GVWR was only due to a very few being particularly light, like 4200-4400lb UVW & offering lots of capacity to shovel junk into. The aboved mentioned 206ES is 4224UVW & 6600GVWR. I'm also planning on if I bought a more robust tow vehicle & how that would allow full use of the 6500GWVR. I've towed a 23000GVWR trailer behind my truck before just to move it empty and by itself was nearly at my tow capacity. I have control over what the trailer weighs between the UVW & GVWR and I won't be pushing anything to the point of being unplesant or dangerous to pull.

 

[TheLooks]

I can only say good luck on 13 and 14. As a former cabinet guy, I cringe at the quality of cabinets or lack of it.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Well I was shopping around online again and I came across a 2010 TrailManor 3023 that I believe is in pretty good shape. I looked at it in person, got some measurements and I think it would be a great compromise of interior volume vs. exterior size when collapsed, the lightweight on paper anyway, means it could be theoretically pulled by my Grand Caravan. I didn't even know hard sided pop-up existed until I saw this, of course I had to check out what I could find on youtube as to how they're deployed. The closest I found was that of the same model but a 2003 model year and I was pleasantly surprised by the upgrades made by TrailManor or previous owners to this 2010 model year. The thing that give me pause is the canvas seals everywhere, they were in good but not excellent shape on the unit in question but I can see them being prone to pinching and/or tearing if not deployed and retracted very carefully. This thing is like a great big transformer in the way the cabinets, bathroom & beds are disconnnected and folded or slid in. It was old enough, it still had coax cable connections run to a few different areas and didn't have any installed provisions for solar connection. The fridge was also removed in favor of a small 20" cube deal which looked out of place in the hole made for a fridge (3-way?) at least 50% larger. The thing was very clean inside and the gentleman selling it was a vet that was now at a point he (and presumably his wife also) preferred to stay in a hotel when they vacationed. That and the condition of the unit leads me to believe it was well cared for since he bought it in 2013 if I heard him correctly. My wife was less than enamored with the colors and patterns of the fabric inside, I don't know why the RV/TT industry picks the fabric they do but it always seems to be at least 10 years out of date from when they manufacture anything. The 40 gallon freshwater tank was a pleasant surprise vs. the 20 gallon they apparently came equipped with in 2003. The LED lights he installed throughout were also welcome as were the Goodyear Endurance tires with a date code of 0920. The unloaded vehicle weight of 3223 appears to include the weight of the battery and two empty 20lb propane bottles, though I realize there's plenty more that could add quickly and significanly to that weight before clothes, food and other camp ready requirements were added to the mix so exceeding the van's max tow rating of 3600lbs seems very likely, very easily.

Dissertation of my observations aside, what experience does anyone here have and what should I be looking for specifically before considering making an offer?

 

[sanda]

There's a screaming deal on a TT not too far from me with a "certificate of destruction" due to water damage but it looks fine. Apparently it can't be registered due to the COD. This would obviously be a cash deal, as anything else would be I'm interested in buying. This COD thing I find odd though, it seems it could be inspected if need be and recertified? At any rate, my other option would be to separate the camper body from the chassis and have the chassis weighed & register it as a utility trailer, a utility trailer that just happens to have a removable (not easily) camper body on it all the time. This would allow legal (but iffy) registration and a one time plate fee of ~$78 vs. ~$170/yr. with registration & property taxes.

The question I was posing in my original post was whether or not people really accept such outrageous terms resulting in huge interested paid? The rest of the fluff was just a babbling backstory.

There are far more people that only care about the monthly payment than really look at the interest costs.

 

[BGMAC]

Well, It is all about what you want and what you will settle for. I go online and see what it is worth, then add or deduct what you like or dislike. Example the standard fridge is gone deduct the price it would cost to replace it.

Here is good place to start. 2010 Trailmanor M-3023 Prices

 

[Bigblockyeti]

That gives me a good reference point (I have no idea how quickly JD Power or any other site captures real time pricing trends in these wild times?) and he's within spitting distance of "average retail" despite being a private sale. More research on others for sale is now a top priority! I don't know what kind of following these have but they certainly seem to fill a niche in a market that otherwise has additional compromises with a fabric pop-up, hybrid or small, hard-sided traditional TT. The bonus of being particularly clean and Goodyear tires and LED lighting I think easily outweigh the need for a $200 replacement fridge (120V only) to properly fill the hole. I didn't get a look at the roof as he already had everything deployed when I arrived but this picture almost looks like very light hail damage.

 

[Jireh Financial]

The NADA we subscribe to (and the lenders in our business) updates 6 times a year. Right now we are operating with the March/April edition.
Ken

 

[Bigblockyeti]

I'm guessing that being in the industry, that's probably a paid subscription it would make no sense for me to consider without needing it for business?

 

[Jireh Financial]

I'm guessing that being in the industry, that's probably a paid subscription it would make no sense for me to consider without needing it for business?

The service we pay for has both wholesale and retail values. As a non-business, not sure it would be available. I have looked up several values for both buyers and sellers on this forum. With the full year, make and model, I can help.
Let me know.
Ken

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Life is a compromise!
That said that is what I will talk about. I consider popups, to be campers.
As a camper you don't expect much storage, and you don't get it. Full height cabinets, well, there aren't any. The fridge will be limited, but the interior will seem spacious. Great for weathering a storm.

The reason water tanks are small (20) is weight. (40 almost 400 lbs)

Campers are go anywhere equipment. Unless you would rather stay in a resort setting.

That said Unless you are expecting the need of a doghouse, they are a good compromise!

 

[TheLooks]

I looked over the new line up of TrailManor's last night. Have seen them rarely and was intrigued when you brought it up. If it were just me, no wife, I would have one. Love the easy towing and simple setup. They say they are higher quality also. That is a rigid roof and they are not known for leaking. The seals seem to last for years.