Consignment Sale with NIRVC

[Texas Clodhopper]

Brett Davis is a breath of fresh air. I appreciate him publicly addressing the issue and as I always say there are two sides to every story.

 

[Neal]

Well, I don't think this story is about sides. The question is what made the seller feel this way and if something needs to be fixed to prevent this in the future, that is the takeaway. So from the seller point, whenever Renee wants to respond, what are the key areas that raised anxiety. Where could the experience be improved for a future seller? In the end I'm sure NIRVC wants the buyer happy and the seller happy. If something failed on either end of that deal, what can be improved to make this a win/win next time.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

Personally, I think this should now be between Renee and Brett to sort out. We, as the broader public are not owed any further involvement. The facts have been well-presented and whatever perceptions created this exchange are between them.

TJ

 

[Neal]

Having spoken with Renee knowing this story was forthcoming, let's fallback to why she posted it. I know she is not available at the moment which is why I'm chiming in on her behalf.

This story was not an attack on NIRVC but for those selling via consignment to understand the process but also understand how things happen and concerns as it related to her sale. Imagine you learn your coach is in the hands of new owners and see a Facebook post of them driving off when you aren't confident it's not still your liability. Yes, there is the side of the story of how some things broke down and caused high anxiety. Others will go down this path of consignment and can be better armed with how the process works such as title prep, contracts/agreements, what if you have an existing loan on your coach (hasn't been discussed as it didn't apply to her). As I write this, maybe there is a place for @NIRVC in the Dealer Connection forum to outline how to sell your coach using their consignment services. It may actually attract business for the RV community to know that this is available and what the process is. How to best prepare for selling via consignment, how NIRVC handles your coach and sale, etc. We as fellow RVers can discuss when it's right to use consignment vs. selling on your own because you will take a significant financial hit for the price of convenience. @NIRVC could also in another post detail their IN/OUT service, which I still don't fully understand simply because I don't have to, I'm not selling/buying at this time. Just a few thoughts as education and communication are the keys to success.

 

[MapNerd]

Well, I don't think this story is about sides. The question is what made the seller feel this way and if something needs to be fixed to prevent this in the future, that is the takeaway. So from the seller point, whenever Renee wants to respond, what are the key areas that raised anxiety. Where could the experience be improved for a future seller? In the end I'm sure NIRVC wants the buyer happy and the seller happy. If something failed on either end of that deal, what can be improved to make this a win/win next time.

You raise the critical, most important question in my opinion @Neal - what made the seller feel this way.

To me, based purely on what I have read (a couple times at length now) it sounds like a case of parties not being on the same page regarding the step-by-step process of selling a coach by consignment. I will fully admit that when I considered selling early in the year, I had multiple dealers offering to sell by consignment but I always said no purely because I did not at all, understand the process.

I think @ARD raised a lot of good questions in her post, questions that none of us actually knew the answer to and could only speculate and make assumptions on. That obviously can lead to massive misunderstandings when people who don’t know the process are just trying to use logic and common sense to sort through a complicated process. Usually, the more complex a process or transaction, the more steps in that process that are completely counterintuitive, which is where we fall victim to making incorrect assumptions

Equally, I think @Brett Davis’ post did an excellent job explaining that process, what the steps are, how each party is protected, etc. This may already exist but if not, maybe a very simple, plain language, infographic educating consignment sellers on the step-by-step process, what happens when, and how they are protected at each step, should be included and gone over with each consignment seller.

The most valuable lesson I have ever learned in my life can be summed up in just 4 words.

ALWAYS. ASSUME. GOOD. INTENT.​

Many people take that to mean that one should allow themselves to be taken advantage of but nothing could be further from the truth. What it means is it is imperative to take a breath, stop for a moment and put yourself in the shoes of the other party. It’s much harder than it sounds.

If anyone is a Game of Thrones fan, there is an excellent quote from the character Littlefinger/Petyr Baelish towards the very end of the series when he is advising his new queen on how to interpret the actions of others.

Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?

Here’s the important piece of context to understand about that quote though - Littlefinger is executed by the queen shortly thereafter, using the same logic that he advised her with. He was a slimeball the entire series and got what was coming to him, but if only he had advised her to assume the best.

I have learned and re-learned this lesson of always assuming good intent many times. When I fail to abide by it, more often than not it bites me in the rear.

 

[RKins]

After reading this thread, I think I learned Do Not initiate any transaction on a Friday. The beginning and the end of this story happened on a Friday - the consignment and the 2nd sale. Usually communication lapses happen over a weekend.

 

[redbaron]

After reading this thread, I think I learned Do Not initiate any transaction on a Friday. The beginning and the end of this story happened on a Friday - the consignment and the 2nd sale. Usually communication lapses happen over a weekend.

But the car and rv industries have their busiest day on Saturday, so Friday shouldn't be a factor in the sales and finance side

 

[Neal]

The problem and answer is simple. It's the most common cause for any and all problems whether relationships or business deals.

COMMUNICATION

 

[GlampDaddy]

The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.
--GB Shaw

 

[FL-JOE]

When it came time to sell out Newmar several months ago I turned to a member here who had sold his Newmar. Based on how his sale went, plus what I considered a fairly high commission rate for consignment, I decided to list it myself on RVTrader and a couple other places. Within 5 weeks it was gone for a price I was happy with. If I was honest with how many hours I devoted in showing my rig and taking calls it would add up to me making somewhere over $2,000 per hour.

Recently a friend who had my exact same make, year, model of Newmar decided to sell his. He initially toyed with the idea of consignment but after we talked he listed his on RVTrader. Within a week his sold for slightly more than mine did several months ago.

We have all dealt with RV salesmen. They don't get up in the morning and go to work thinking "wow, I sure hope I can help one of my customers out today", no, they go to work to MAKE MONEY off selling something. You just have to decide if paying $20,000, $30,000 or more to sell your RV is worth it to you. I decided it wasn't in today's market conditions.

Now I'm not taking sides with the OPs original post. I think the only thing she was doing was giving some advise to anyone considering a consignment deal, which is what I am doing. I have never met Brett Davis and I know from this forum most of you who have thinks he is a water walker and wonderful. Possibly if I ever met him or dealt with him I would think the same. But IMHO anyone who spent the kind of money she did to sell her coach should talk away with a warm and fuzzy felling that she got her moneys worth.

 

[redbaron]

Consignment is 7.5% of sales price. This is low for the industry, but very high when compared to real-estate.

Just like real estate, the sales and marketing is done within the cost of that commission and a large portion goes to the sales staff. I don't know the numbers, but assume it's around 2-2.5% going to sales staff.

Most people cannot handle the process of selling their own car, house, or RV. There is a lot of work involved, and if you are not in a position to do this, Consignment is the best answer.

With Consignment comes the decision of a dealer. Reputable dealers are few. Larger Consignment only dealers have many many hidden fees.

Nirvc has no hidden fees, is one of the lower price points, and has shown they care.

If you can do the work your self, then they also offer in and out.

I personally chose the in and out, but it was nice knowing there was another option should circumstances change.

 

[FL-JOE]

I agree Red, there are some folks that cannot handle selling larger expensive items, or items that require different forms of paperwork. Many others just don't want to be bothered. There are tons of scams out there everyone has to sift through no matter what they are trying to sell. Over the years I have read many reviews and other comments about NIRVC, most of which are positive.

It is just that for me (and my friend apparently) $17,000 to $20,000 was just too much to throw away when the used coach market was so active and high. In addition, both of us are full timers and we would have had to consign our coaches remotely. I certainly wasn't going to do anything like that and I wasn't interested in turning my coach over to a consignment lot and buying a different RV immediately to continue to travel/live in, hoping it sold.

At any rate, her original post may have let us drift into other areas a little but this will be a good read for future RVers considering listing their RVs in the future maybe.

 

[Jireh Financial]

My company handles transactions between private buyers and sellers regularly. We do title and lien searches, collect copies of ownership docs process lender paperwork, wire or ACH funds, make payoffs and do state work as required per state. A few people have mentioned communication as the key and we agree with that. We take very few verbal steps. Email is best so there is always a record.
Selling on your own does present some challenges including trust, $$ and paperwork. Not to mention having people you don't know over to your home or storage area to see your unit.
We can eliminate some of the uncertainty. At least you know if there is a qualified buyer involved early in the game.
Let us know how we can help.
Ken

 

[Neal]

Some of the facts of consignment as I've learned so that people considering this route can understand the costs. There are reasons people go this route, one of which not mentioned is safety. Just like selling a house, you're letting strangers into a confined place with minimal to no protection for yourself. To some this is a reason they can't or won't sell on their own which is valid and the cost of paying someone else to sell on your behalf.

As to the costs, things to expect from what I've learned:

• Obviously selling on your own you can command a higher price and control negotiation
• Selling through a dealer is not going to even get you listed near the same price in this market as if you would sell on your own, so that's an initial loss
• A dealer knows more about your coach such as even what you paid for it and may negotiate on the "buyer's behalf" to move the price lower towards a target out of the sellers market
• A dealer may create a list of repairs, some of which you may not agree with both in need as well as cost, and who pays for this or an option to split the cost, plays in and possibly not in your favor
• A hefty commission for consignment

As stated, if you can, give it a chance on your own or have a friend help you or be with you. If things don't work out through your test period, look at alternate options. To some though, just getting the damn thing out of your life is worth it whatever the cost as you want to move on in life. It's time to close this door and open a new one and be positive on the road ahead.

Attitude is everything. If you go into something negative that something will be a terrible experience. Keep a positive attitude and move forward. Live and learn, or "pay it forward" as @Chuggs always said to me with his 80,000 hours of unpaid RV education he supplied me

 

[ARD]

My intention of posting in the “Help with Buying or Selling an RV” forum was to share my experience as a way of helping others considering a consignment sale. Unfortunately, we often post what doesn’t go right or as we expect, so I appreciate @Brett Davis’ post as it provided more context as to everything that went right – a quick sale of my coach at a good price.

My issues had to do with the actual closing of the transaction which in turn revealed a breakdown in communication between the NIRVC departments and with me. I felt as seller, I fell through the cracks. I was not told the time of the closing; I was not asked for wiring instructions; I was not forwarded a settlement statement for review; I was not told that they needed original title aka release of title aka printed title; I was never contacted in any form, PRIOR to the buyer’s side of the closing. Everything on my side of the transaction happened AFTER the buyers closed on their part of the deal and had left or were readying to leave the premises with the coach. That is what I take issue with.

I had certain expectations of NIRVC in their capacity as a closing agent due to my background in law as Brett mentioned. NIRVC may do over 100 consignments a month, but I don’t. I’ve always leased cars until I retired. Since then, I have bought 3 cars, 1 motorhome and sold 1 car in my lifetime. Needless to say, vehicle transactions are not in my wheelhouse of knowledge; however, I am quite experienced in both commercial and residential transactions ranging from small deals to $30 million dollars. It is that knowledge that drives my discontent.

What I consider some very basic duties of a closing agent are as follows:

1. Have all Seller Documentation. In this case NIRVC needed printed title so that once a closing took place, the buyer could initiate a change in title.
2. Have all Buyer Documentation including, but not limited to, executed loan closing documentation and whatever requirements the lender may have such as insurance, etc.
3. Confirm the deposit and loan funds are in the closing agent’s account.

The closing happens when all the above conditions are fulfilled, and then keys are released to buyer and proceeds are disbursed to seller. This is a closing, not when one party performs, but when both parties perform enabling the closing agent to finalize the transaction by handing over the keys and disbursing the monies.

Now there are cases where parties may close in escrow, such as in a case where all documents are executed, but the closing agent must wait until the loan proceeds hit their account prior to handing over the keys and disbursing.

There are also cases where a buyer and seller may agree that the buyer can take possession prior to the closing and enter into a Preoccupancy Agreement which will outline the terms of the agreement including such items as compensation, dispute resolution, liability, etc. Likewise, a seller may continue to live on a property after a closing under a Post Occupancy Agreement or Lease. Terms are set and all parties agree.

So, this is my problem. I did not perform under the agreement, hence no closing. I take full responsibility of not providing “title,” even though I was told by the Sales Manager that their title department would handle it. Further, I was not advised of this until after the buyer executed their documents and were leaving in my motorhome. My first phone call was received at 3:44 pm EST on a Friday requesting title. I began asking questions because I was quite upset to find out about this outstanding item after the fact. I was then transferred to the Finance Manager, and she reiterated that I must release title to them prior to disbursement of funds. I asked about a seeing a Settlement Statement, and whether it was true that the buyers were leaving the premises which she confirmed.

Never have I ever heard of a closing agent making the decision to hand over the keys, if you will, without having all documentation and/or funding and/or ability to disburse proceeds, unless there was an agreement between the buyer and seller in place. In my case an Indemnification Agreement would have been wise because contrary to what Brett stated in his letter to me posted on this forum, I can be held liable should the motorhome be involved in an incident and that liability remains until the Florida Tax Collector receives the Notice of Sale which would then release my name linking it to the vehicle. I confirmed this information with a phone call to the tax collector.

So Iate Friday afternoon, I drop everything and get online to find out how I am supposed to “release title.” I don’t have a clue about vehicle transactions, so I start reading. The Finance Manager meanwhile emailed me a screenshot regarding electronic title and how to get a printed title. Okay, so the verbiage of “release of title” means give them a printed copy. Okay, got it.

I go to the link she provided me to discover that it would take 7 to 10 business days to receive it at my mail forwarding address. Then I would have to have it forwarded to me in NC whereupon, I would forward it to NIRVC. I have at this point no expectation of receiving any proceeds until they receive the printed title. My frustration did not stem from not receiving my proceeds. I had no doubts that I could trust NIRVC in this matter, not to mention, I was going to have to send it back to them in a few months anyway, but because this is not how I conduct business and/or a closing. I’m meticulous when it comes to doing things “correctly.” There was too much risk, liability, my reputation, and my law degree to safeguard to do otherwise.

While I am filling out the form to request the printed title, the Finance Manager called me, and she worked with me tirelessly until 7pm EST. The whole “releasing the title to NIRVC” verbiage was confusing as there was no place to do that on the FL DMV site. Essentially what one must do is have the printed title mailed to them. It will come to my attention, but to their address. Confirmation of this request evidently is all that is required for the seller to get their proceeds.

So, who is at risk when a closing is conducted in this manner? Everyone! Some more than others. The buyers are at risk because they cannot initiate a title transfer because NIRVC does not have printed title in their hands. The bank is at risk because they don’t have any collateral at this point. NIRVC is at risk because they sent me money without first receiving printed title. I am risk because my name will be linked to the motorhome until the tax collector receives the Notice of Sale. I would say yes that I had the least amount of risk ONCE I received the proceeds 6 days after the buyers took possession. That is not the point. No one should be at risk if a closing is done properly.

Now let’s just add in one more fact. Even if NIRVC had the printed title and I did everything on my part correctly, NIRVC was not in any position to disburse the sale proceeds, as they did not have the loan proceeds. An approval and the money in the bank are two different things. It was explained to me by the Finance Manager that the only reason they let the buyers take the coach was because the lender was NIRVC’s bank; otherwise, they would never have agreed to it. Frankly, I’ve never heard of such a thing, unless there is a meeting of the minds between the buyer and seller. It wasn’t up to the closing agent to make that decision.

I would like to note that in my previous post, I basically said the Sales Manager dropped the ball. Where do you all think I got that idea? I got that from a NIRVC manager who said that they didn’t want to blame him as he had a lot on his plate.

I also said that my coach should not have been sold without NIRVC having printed title. Where do you think I got that notion? The Finance Manager told me that no coach should go on the consignment lot unless they have printed title in their hands. She additionally wrote an email to me, the Sales Manager, and Salesperson wherein she states that she will tell Mary Kay (and I apologize I don’t know who she is but I’m guessing she is in title.) “that going forward she is not to process a consignment for sale unless we have all the required documents.”

Not everyone seems to be on the same page on exactly how these transactions are to be processed. I do not want to comment further on the breakdown of communication within NIRVC and subsequently with me as an Owner other than that to say I entrusted my coach to NIRVC to sell my coach which they did and quickly, but I never knew who “my” contact person was - the person making sure my interests were protected, the person that was supposed to keep me informed. The buyers had the selling agent who guided them and who told me repeatedly what a great couple they are and how she wanted them to have a good experience. I felt like her only concern was the buyers which stung since I was also her customer and referred @redbaron to her, as well. Who was my person? I don’t know. I still don’t know. Who was responsible for making sure everything was in order so that a smooth, seamless closing could take place? I don’t know. Ultimately, the Finance Manager became the bearer of information, but only after a one-sided transaction had already been concluded.

Lastly, my post was never meant to denigrate NIRVC, but to share my experience so that someone else considering a consignment sale can be smarter than I was in such a transaction.

 

[tims5842]

You all think the RV industry is bad, apparently there aren't a lot of boat owners in this forum too. The boat industry has the majority of the high traffic websites locked up with "broker only" listings. Selling a higher end boat is very difficult as a result. Sure, selling a standard bass boat or runabout can be done easily on Craigslist, Marketplace, or other sites, but specialty boats (the equivalent of a Newmar/Tiffin and up for comparative purposes) become very difficult. Standard broker fee is 10%. Communication through the process is awful. Deals take a long time from offer to close. Buyer has the right to get out for any reason for a long period of time making you wonder if the deal will ever really complete. Nearly every transaction requires a marine survey (either for financing or for insurance), and most of the surveyors have a big chip on their shoulder and seem to like to intentionally muck up a sale. So while this industry isn't perfect, I'd give it 3.5 stars compared to my marine experiences. Yet, I'm still in the market for another vessel...

 

[Jireh Financial]

My company does marine business as well. Surveys are very important with larger things because most will set in the water for months and years. There are no adjustments in NADA for hours or condition or even zip code. As far as NADA is concerned, a boat in Michigan fresh water for 6 months will have the same BOOK VALUE as a Florida boat setting in salt for 12 months a year.
Marine brokerage commission has been 10% for years. Sometimes a broker MIGHT bend if selling his own listing. Just like in Real Estate, a smaller both side sale is still better than half.
Let me know if we can help.
Ken

 

[10thtp]

If you follow any of Brett Davis’s activities in the RV Industry, his involvement and response to this situation comes as no surprise. His impeccable integrity and leadership is easily seen in the NIRVC organization. Based on this leadership I took the opportunity to order and take delivery of a new 2022 Beyond 22c li3 from the Atlanta GA NIRVC. I bought the Coach and had it delivered to my house 800 miles away sight unseen without a single glitch. As a 45 year retired veteran of the industry I will say don’t let the actions or mistake of one employee define the company.