Flaky surge guard?

[Richpatty]

Hey guys. Sanity check time.

Have been having an odd electrical issue in the last 24 or so hours. Have been in this campground since Saturday with no issues. Then starting early this morning, we realized that we had been losing our shore power. What it appeared is that something (low voltage?) would cause my Southwire Surge Guard to kick off and then start the 2 minute delay. Since we have an inverter, it was hard to notice since the only thing that happens is the heatpump or electric elements on the oasis shut down. What clued us in is the "beep" that comes from the induction cooktop when the power returns which happened after the power returned. You could also hear the "thump" of the transfer switch. Note: I have a the Surge Guard paired with a Hughes Autoformer that are installed in my basement. This is our first outing with this arrangement although I had used both before.

The first thing I did was test using a dog bone and 30 amp. The problem went away for over an hour... So we had the campground check the post. The electrician (County park) came out and replaced both the 50a outlet and breaker and said there were issues with loose connections and old breakers. After that point, we were good for the rest of the day on 50a.

But tonight the problem returned. I have checked the following:
- Reversed the logical position of the surge guard and Autoformer to see if there was some kind of interaction going on. No change.
- Checked wiring on the plug end of the autoformer kit to make sure none of those wires were loose or arcing. Checked out ok.
- Checked wires on transfer switch. Looked ok, no arcing.
- Shut off power and moved the power cord on the reel to ensure that the reel was not sitting in a "dead spot". Didn't help.
- Removed Surge guard from the configuration and (of course) the problem stopped (since it was the device that was resetting)

I have spent a lot of time staring at the precision circuit display watching for fluctuations. Didn't see any and it has been rock solid on 122-124 volts on both legs. Even when under load.

I am beginning think my Surge guard has become flakey and over zealous about fluctuations in power. I do not remember how old it is, but I figure it is at least 6 years old, but less then 8. Remember we do not travel all that much so although it has some age, not a ton of use.

Do you guys agree? We will be heading to another campground on Sunday where I may plug this thing in again and see if the problem follows the device or the campground.

Thanks for thoughts and opinions.
Rich

 

[Rich W.]

Do you guys agree? We will be heading to another campground on Sunday where I may plug this thing in again and see if the problem follows the device or the campground.

This would be my first move (no pun intended). While reading this I suspected either the surge guard or the campground power. Since removing the surge guard from the equation stopped the issue, it has to be one or the other.

Anyone else in the CG having any issues? If not I’d lean more towards the SG than the CG although your system is much more advanced than the norm.

 

[Richpatty]

Thanks! I guess the answer will become more obvious in the next few days.

 

[Rich W.]

Thanks! I guess the answer will become more obvious in the next few days.

That it will. What county park are you in? I don't often run across them when its time to stop and typically they are not a destination, but I always enjoy them. There’s usually something different or interesting or scenic or quaint about them and they are almost always quiet and nearly empty. Also typically patrolled by the local PD or SO. Some might have marginal power though….

 

[lostinfla]

I had an issue while in Indiana a few months ago. I have a 50a Surge Guard hardwired in the bin, and it would drop out every time we got a decent rain. The breaker in the pedestal was still on but the surge would kill power to the coach. I finally figured out through testing with my meter that there was an issue with the pedestal below ground that when enough water was present, it was allowing one leg to bleed over to the neutral. If the surge sees any more than a volt or so on the neutral, it will kick out. Never had another issue after leaving that CG. Anyone without surge protection wouldn't notice a problem as the power would stay on, but the issue would eventually cause issues with electrical items on any camper. I tried to explain the problem to the CG, but since the breaker didn't kick, it was a non problem to them.

 

[Richpatty]

I had an issue while in Indiana a few months ago. I have a 50a Surge Guard hardwired in the bin, and it would drop out every time we got a decent rain. The breaker in the pedestal was still on but the surge would kill power to the coach. I finally figured out through testing with my meter that there was an issue with the pedestal below ground that when enough water was present, it was allowing one leg to bleed over to the neutral. If the surge sees any more than a volt or so on the neutral, it will kick out. Never had another issue after leaving that CG. Anyone without surge protection wouldn't notice a problem as the power would stay on, but the issue would eventually cause issues with electrical items on any camper. I tried to explain the problem to the CG, but since the breaker didn't kick, it was a non problem to them.

Yea, I can see that happening. And I thought through that, but I am pretty sure the Autoformer does similar checks. I guess I will find out tomorrow when I move to the next stop.

 

[Neal]

Sounds like your AGS is not armed otherwise it would have been another clue This happened to me two days ago at my current CG as I lost power twice. Been fine prior to this point. I called maintenance and he told me they had a big storm a week ago and the power company has been trying to stabilize things and that they are seeing high voltage. I looked at my EMS and it shows 130V on one side so yeah, the ATS is definitely shutting down on voltage spikes. I asked him to check the voltage at the pedestal as I know my Hughes AF is boosting it and it was a few V's lower, around 127 for the highest.

I'm not sure your flow of electrical components but I have a progressive SSP-50XL at the pedestal. I use that just to get the lights to verify the wiring is good and it's also first level of protection. I then go into the Hughes Autoformer which goes into the progressive EMS-HW50C so I can see the voltage after the autoformer and going into the transfer switch.

I wouldn't react to one campground or site. And the maintenance folks always have interesting alibi's as to what's going on, typically "it's your rig" or something to that effect.

Make sure contacts are clean, check voltage, go from there.

 

[Neal]

I am beginning think my Surge guard has become flakey and over zealous about fluctuations in power. I do not remember how old it is, but I figure it is at least 6 years old, but less then 8. Remember we do not travel all that much so although it has some age, not a ton of use.

Do you guys agree? We will be heading to another campground on Sunday where I may plug this thing in again and see if the problem follows the device or the campground.

If removing that solved the problem, yeah, I'd be concerned about it. I know some people with surge devices as the pedestal have had issues with water intrusion. I've had mine for a number of years, always used it, no problems so far.

 

[Richpatty]

Never use my AGS... No longer have pets and have not needed it in recent years...

And I would point to the campground, but they did replace the breaker and outlet and said it looked crummy prior. They never said it was not their issue. And to be honest, it has been solid overnight with just the Autoformer in line.

Will let everyone know when we get to the next stop tomorrow!

 

[Neal]

Off topic but the AGS can also protect from a battery discharge such as if you lost shore power in storage. It's one thing for air conditioners / heat protection, but there are other reasons for it, as you know. Also is a great indicator for when something isn't working as expected

 

[Richpatty]

100% agree...but ours is stored at home, plugged in so that risk is minimized...

 

[Rich W.]

So in the next park if you try it both with and without your surgie, you should have a good idea what‘s going on. I just ordered a Progressive 50XL using Neal’s link (Thanks Neal!) as I have been plugging in without protection until now and I‘m heading out for a couple weeks on the North Coast next week staying in locations that are new to me. I‘ve been meaning to research surge protectors but I figured Neal probably did his homework and the price was right.

As I start to veer off topic (again…), Neal why are you using two surge protectors: the 50XL through the Autoformer and then into the HW50C? Just curious.

 

[Neal]

Neal why are you using two surge protectors: the 50XL through the Autoformer and then into the HW50C? Just curious.

At Newmar they installed the hardwired EMS. I later added the Autoformer. I then learned of people having cord reels taken out presumably from electrical storms so I bought one for the pedestal and it also gives me an indication immediately of pedestal wiring. And my ATS has a surge protector but it's a one and done deal from what I hear. Yeah, too many, or can you have too many? That's my MO - excess!

 

[Rich W.]

At Newmar they installed the hardwired EMS. I later added the Autoformer. I then learned of people having cord reels taken out presumably from electrical storms so I bought one for the pedestal and it also gives me an indication immediately of pedestal wiring. And my ATS has a surge protector but it's a one and done deal from what I hear. Yeah, too many, or can you have too many? That's my MO - excess!

Well that makes sense. The SSP-50 should be good enough then. I dont have the OE surge protection (that I know of - PD52 xfer switch) but I do have the Precision Circuits EMS. And I’ll tale advantage of the lock ring and chain it to the pedestal - I would guess some parks have rules about this so I’ll be discrete about it.

Edit - Confirmed PD52 does not have surge protection, but the PD52DCS does.

 

[Rich W.]

So R&P are you in a new park? Have any issues? Please advise.

I got my PI Surge Protector SSP-50XL (Figured Neal did his homework and if it was good enough for him…) today in time for our pending departure. Had to plug it in to my home “pedestal“ to see it working and it seems to. Green and blue LEDs. I plan to lock it to park pedestals and hope park mgmt. doesn't have a problem with this. Seems to me I read about that somewhere.

 

[HookupAndGo]

So last month we had pretty much the exact same issue -- only difference was we were on a 30A site.
Essentially, the voltage was very low during the day when everyone had their' AC's running hard -- it would drop as low as 108. At night or first thing in the morning it was 122 or so.

I too have a Progressive Surge Guard so used to just look out the bathroom window so I could read the voltage at the pedestal (I also had a unit inside -- but also used the Progressive unit so I could monitor my Amp usage).

After a week of being very concerned about the voltage I ordered a 50A Autoformer -- had to pull that trigger and spend the money. Finally, nice steady power coming into the RV.

Then, after about a week of watching it, and seeing it boost, one morning we woke up and the AC control indicated no power (the inverter took over for everything else). So i looked out the window and sure enough, the Progressive Unit had tripped -- Over Voltage, and it was still high (i think 134).

I tried resetting at the breaker, everything. Finally got my meter out and measured... 122. Hmm, So the Autoformer essentially was "latched" in full boost mode. I did some reading on the internet and found others with this latching problem. So, I disconnected the Autoformer and applied the old "calibration" method -- "the 1" drop" (others used a rubber mallet). Bingo. It "un-latched" and was back to normal mode.

Things were great for another 5 days and it happened again. Repeated the attitude adjustment and all good again.

So, it is sounding like your Autoformer is latching like mine did -- only difference is you are 50a and I was only on 30. I think what is happening is the voltage goes up at night/early morning since it is cool and power usage is down. Then your autoformer latches and you are pretty much done until you get it reset.

 

[Richpatty]

Thanks all. So we have been here at Mayberry Campground since Sunday and even with my suspected surge protector online, I have not had any issues. So the verdict (for now) is that there must have been something flaky with the shore power that the surge protector didn’t like. Odd that the Autoformer logic did not see it…

 

[Fatboy2004]

100% agree...but ours is stored at home, plugged in so that risk is minimized...

Off subject, but storing it at home plugged. One is it needed to be plugged in all the time and if so is it pulling a lot of power on my bill ?

 

[Richpatty]

Off subject, but storing it at home plugged. One is it needed to be plugged in all the time and if so is it pulling a lot of power on my bill ?

When I had LA batteries, I felt I needed to keep it plugged in as they like to be topped off…. Not sure it pulled that much power…as I had it plugged into a 15amp outlet. Was not running anything else.

With the lithiums, I do not plug it in as they stay charged with very little self discharge. I do put a small trickle charger on the chassis batteries to keep them charged…. That uses very little power.

Hope this helps.