Question Rettroband - are they worth it?

[MemoriesByTheMile]

More reason to consider LifePO4 batteries to get the weight off these front axles. Since I'm hemorrhaging money and the ER declined my visit to stop the bleeding, may as well continue! I'll be foreclosing on the lawn mower shed next.

I hear that kidneys can fetch some good money.

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

And today in the news - a bus carrying highschool kids in NY overturns after going off the highway - preliminary sounds like it may have been a steering tire failure. Of the 44 on the bus, a couple fatalities and a few in critical condition.

Is there something intrinsically wrong with this configuration?

 

[Richpatty]

I was thinking the same thing as I was watching the news tonight. Why isn't anyone tracking this stuff?

 

[Neal]

A contributing factor could be economic times is causing companies to delay periodic maintenance and make decisions based on financial conditions such as delaying tire replacement etc. I imagine an incident such as this will warrant an investigation that will eventually reveal the facts.

 

[team bradfield]

How many busses/mh's are on the road right now, 1 million? 2 million? How many failures daily? I don't lose any sleep over it, more afraid of semi's cutting back in close after a pass, 2 close calls last trip. I've been towing fifth wheels forever, never had a steer tire just blow out, only 2 flats in towing, same day, my fault, overloaded driver side of my 1st fiver, proper maintenance is the key, good quality rubber and constant eyes on the road for potholes/debris and tire pressures, JMHO

 

[sacrcflyer]

In my opinion, anytime the front end is maxed out and placard says maximum tire pressure retrobands are a must. After watching the video with Brett Davis and the reaction the coach had if I was heavy on the front I would have them. We bought our new (leftover) 22 Cornerstone March 1st from Nirvc in Atlanta and we had them installed from new. They did a nice job installing and no marks on rims whatsoever. I am very picky about the wheels Lol.

 

[team bradfield]

How many busses/mh's are on the road right now, 1 million? 2 million? How many failures daily? I don't lose any sleep over it, more afraid of semi's cutting back in close after a pass, 2 close calls last trip. I've been towing fifth wheels forever, never had a steer tire just blow out, only 2 flats in towing, same day, my fault, overloaded driver side of my 1st fiver, proper maintenance is the key, good quality rubber and constant eyes on the road for potholes/debris and tire pressures, JMHO

Fyi, I do have Tyron bands

 

[turbopilot]

Images today show the tire fragments with most of tread on the shoulder where the bus went over the side. Also there was one of the old fashioned cable like barrier along the side of the road that is insufficient to hold back a bus or truck departing the road. Good news, NTSB is involved so if there is a systemic problem with these tires it should be flushed out. Meanwhile YouTube knowing I searched for this subject is finding many new reports of RV steer tire failures. Where reported I am seeing a common theme of these reports happening in older higher milage tires. Greater than 15,000 miles and or 5 years of age.

Until there is a more systematic review I think it is wise to time self impose time/mile limits for steer tires. Maybe 15,000 miles and 3 years for the steers. Just rotate them back to the drive position for a few more years and put new tires on the steer wheels. Rettroband or not, driving the steers to failure is probably not the right solution.

 

[Joe Hogan]

The mileage of steers appear to vary widely. Truckers report 100k to150k on steers with no issue. There must be some variable not being considered like number of cycles, or tight turns on uneven, unimproved campground roads. Is the construction of XRV steers that much different from standard Class 8 truck tires?

From Truckers Report 2009:

I run Centramatic balancers and have been getting very good mileage out of steers. My partner has been seeing 175,000 or better out of his steer tires.(He runs Centramatics also)
Keep them inflated properly and keep them balanced and keep good shocks of your truck and you'll see a vast improvement in tire wear.

 

[Neal]

Low miles + high age = bad
High miles + high age = good
Result: My $.02

I typically do 10K+ miles/year

 

[turbopilot]

The mileage of steers appear to vary widely. Truckers report 100k to150k on steers with no issue. There must be some variable not being considered like number of cycles, or tight turns on uneven, unimproved campground roads. Is the construction of XRV steers that much different from standard Class 8 truck tires?

From Truckers Report 2009:

I run Centramatic balancers and have been getting very good mileage out of steers. My partner has been seeing 175,000 or better out of his steer tires.(He runs Centramatics also)
Keep them inflated properly and keep them balanced and keep good shocks of your truck and you'll see a vast improvement in tire wear.

I know nothing about the weight and balance of these 18 wheelers by tire. Just visually it looks like the steer tires on these big trucks are not as heavily loaded as they are in a bus or RV application. Proper balance sounds like something that has to lead to more longevity in any tire.

 

[Joe Hogan]

turbopilot

you might be on to something here:

Tire Difference :

Tire Positions 101 | BFGoodrich Truck Tires

What kind of BFGoodrich tire can max out your mileage? Learn all there is to know about steer/all position, drive tires, and trailer tires, then pick the application that fits you best.

www.bfgoodrichtrucktires.com

Steer Tire differences

Semi Steer Tires - Steer Tires from Bridgestone Commercial

Shop Bridgestone's catalog of commercial semi steer tires and choose the one that matches your needs best here. Contact a local dealer today.

commercial.bridgestone.com

Truckers Report

I have an International Pro Star, Cummins 435 ISX engine, with a 45,000 pound load, my weights will run as follows:
1. Steer---12,300
2. Drives---33,300
3. Tandem-33,200
4. Gross---78,800

 

[turbopilot]

turbopilot

you might be on to something here:

Truckers Report

I have an International Pro Star, Cummins 435 ISX engine, with a 45,000 pound load, my weights will run as follows:
1. Steer---12,300
2. Drives---33,300
3. Tandem-33,200
4. Gross---78,800

I have had an interesting experience the last few years involved in the whole subject of weight distribution involving pick up tow vehicles and trailers in tow. It used to be weight distribution hitches tried to put back all the trailer weight (and then some) to the tow vehicle steer wheels.

In the last few years, after SAE set new standards, the major manufactures have backed off 100% FALR (front axle load redistribution) in favor of running the steer wheels lighter. The reason is the whole issue of oversteer and understeer. Those variables are dictated by the weight on the steer wheels.

Right now Ford has changed to a recommendation of 50% FALR for the steers for al F series trucks. Some are recommending as low as 25% FALR for the steers.

I suspect this whole issue of steer tire longevity is tightly coupled to steer tire loading. Steer tire loading governs a the major controllability variable of over/under steer. Over/under steer is a viable of major concern with abrupt inputs (like a steer tire failure) and driving on slick surfaces.

Long winded way of saying I think steer tire loading is a very important issue for many reasons. I am surprised there is not more attention paid to the weight and balance of these big RV buses. Just like in trailers, so often most of the storage (carrying the payload) is found forward of the center of gravity in the RV. That means as you typically add payload the weight is predominantly shifted to the the steer tires.

Most of us that do 4 corner weights on Class A's tend to do the weighing without payload (me included). Rarely do you see 4 corner weights done on Class A's fully loaded for a mission. I suspect many folks are running much more weight on the steer tires than they think.

 

[Joe Hogan]

Here is an interesting article on tire safety from a Truckers perspective.

DOT Tire Regulations: Ultimate Guide - My Safety Manager

DOT Tire Regulations DOT Tire regulations aim to ensure that commercial truck tires meet certain standards for performance and safety, includ

www.mysafetymanager.com

 

[Bigblockyeti]

I can see understeer being an issue if the steer tires were like 25% of their load as rolling down the road how most are setup fully geared up. Oversteer seems exceeding unlikely given the low (relatively) power of these huge rigs (compared to a Rwd car for example) and the significant amount of rubber on the road between the drive and tag axles. Loading the steer tires vs. how they're loaded on a OTR tractor certainly varies and will always be more unless heavy stuff can be shift to the drive axle centerline or behind.

 

[Joe Hogan]

Getting a bit off topic but here is how the Class 8 trucks shift weight off the drives to keep within axle ratings.

Shifting weight by moving the 5th wheel.

Sliding The 5th Wheel For Weight Adjustment | High Road Online CDL Training

 

[Richpatty]

Until there is a more systematic review I think it is wise to time self impose time/mile limits for steer tires. Maybe 15,000 miles and 3 years for the steers. Just rotate them back to the drive position for a few more years and put new tires on the steer wheels. Rettroband or not, driving the steers to failure is probably not the right solution.

I have been thinking of this idea and had the following scenario of replacing the steer tires every 2 years and rotating them to the back. By doing this, your front tires would never be more than 2 years old and you back tires would never be older than 6 or 8 (depending on whether you have a tag or not.)

By year:

Year 0 (all new tires)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 0
Outer Dually 0
Tag 0

Year 2 (no rotation, just replace front)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 2
Outer Dually 2
Tag 2

Year 4 (rotate steers to inner dually)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 2
Outer Dually 4
Tag 4

Year 6 (rotate steers to outer dually)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 4
Outer Dually 2
Tag 6

Year 8 (rotate steers to tag)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 6
Outer Dually 4
Tag 2

Year 10 (starts over - rotate steers to inner dually)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 2
Outer Dually 6
Tag 4

Advantages
1) Front steer are never more than 2 years old
2) Does not cost any more than replacing all tires every 8 years
3) Lowers risk to front steers - maybe enough to not get Rettrobands?

Disadvantages
1) Have to go to tire dealer every other year
2) All tires have to be the same size - maybe you can change the smallest tire to the largest so they all match?
3) If you have Rettrobands, you need to go to NIRVC every other year to have them removed and reinstalled for new tires. Not sure what NIRVC would think of moving the bands so often.
4) Slight risk to damage during the remounting of tires?
5) At the end of each cycle, one set of tires would be approaching 8 years old...maybe too old for some folks risk tolerance.
6) All tires would have to be same brand/type so they match when on dually axel.

Note: If you do not have a tag axel, this would be a 6 year rotation.

Just an idea.
Comments welcome

 

[turbopilot]

I have been thinking of this idea and had the following scenario of replacing the steer tires every 2 years and rotating them to the back. By doing this, your front tires would never be more than 2 years old and you back tires would never be older than 6 or 8 (depending on whether you have a tag or not.)

By year:

Year 0 (all new tires)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 0
Outer Dually 0
Tag 0

Year 2 (no rotation, just replace front)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 2
Outer Dually 2
Tag 2

Year 4 (rotate steers to inner dually)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 2
Outer Dually 4
Tag 4

Year 6 (rotate steers to outer dually)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 4
Outer Dually 2
Tag 6

Year 8 (rotate steers to tag)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 6
Outer Dually 4
Tag 2

Year 10 (starts over - rotate steers to inner dually)
Steer 0 Years old
Inner Dually 2
Outer Dually 6
Tag 4

Advantages
1) Front steer are never more than 2 years old
2) Does not cost any more than replacing all tires every 8 years
3) Lowers risk to front steers - maybe enough to not get Rettrobands?

Disadvantages
1) Have to go to tire dealer every other year
2) All tires have to be the same size - maybe you can change the smallest tire to the largest so they all match?
3) If you have Rettrobands, you need to go to NIRVC every other year to have them removed and reinstalled for new tires. Not sure what NIRVC would think of moving the bands so often.
4) Slight risk to damage during the remounting of tires?
5) At the end of each cycle, one set of tires would be approaching 8 years old...maybe too old for some folks risk tolerance.
6) All tires would have to be same brand/type so they match when on dually axel.

Note: If you do not have a tag axel, this would be a 6 year rotation.

Just an idea.
Comments welcome

Interesting idea. With more data confirming limiting time in service/milage of the steers reduces the chances of failure, it may be unnecessary to even have the Rettrobands on the steers.

 

[Neal]

The New Aire scenario above was low time and mileage was it not?

 

[turbopilot]

The New Aire scenario above was low time and mileage was it not?

I think it happened 2 years into ownership with a lot of movement (based on videos). I still think it is possible the impact on the wheel/tire in the accident 18 months earlier has to be considered as a possible factor.