Spartan chassis owners, be aware.

[Neal]

 

[Neal]

Here is another story on the matter. Just keeping the information posted to this thread for those interested and/or affected. No bias, just adding any information relevant to the matter that becomes available as I find it or others that want to share.

 

[Jabber Jaw]

WOW!! The "PLOT" thickens!
"He said"!
"She said"!
And apparently, we still do not know the truth!
Were I a Newmar, "SPARTAN" chassis owner, I would have a siginificant concern!
What's the outcome?
What say you??

QUESTION: After watching "Lehto's Law" video, and the comment made about inspecting several "Newmar's" at a Dealership, the "NHSTA" representivive stated that "NONE of the stickers affixed, are in compliance with Federal Law"!!! Does that mean that technically "ALL" Newmar coaches are not in compliance? WOW!!!

 

[redbaron]

WOW!! The "PLOT" thickens!
"He said"!
"She said"!
And apparently, we still do not know the truth!
Were I a Newmar, "SPARTAN" chassis owner, I would have a siginificant concern!
What's the outcome?
What say you??

I’ve stated this 2 weeks ago. The outcome will be a recall by Newmar.

As Newmar keeps digging they are going to lose more of their long term unquestionable good will. They are quickly become the THOR of the industry while the Thor brands are becoming the better options.

I am 80% confident Casey Tubman loses his job.

 

[Jabber Jaw]

redbaron......

What do you speculate will happen as a result of the NHSTA inspectors comment, relative to "ALL" the Newmar VIN stickers not being in compliance? This could really get to be a HUGE issue.....if what he said is "TRUE"!!!??

 

[redbaron]

The sticker was never meant to be anything more than useful information for service, owner, and reference.

The sticker is irrelevant.

All other chassis have the vin on the frame. That’s what is required and all that matters.

Only Spartan chassis are in non compliance. All other platforms are safe and free from the hassle that will soon be part of every Spartan owners life.

 

[newmarokie]

§ 568.4 Requirements for incomplete vehicle manufacturers.​

(a) The incomplete vehicle manufacturer shall furnish for each incomplete vehicle, at or before the time of delivery, an incomplete vehicle document (“IVD”) that contains the following statements, in the order shown, and all other information required by this part to be included therein:

(1) Name and mailing address of the incomplete vehicle manufacturer.
(2) Month and year during which the incomplete vehicle manufacturer performed its last manufacturing operation on the incomplete vehicle.
(3) Identification of the incomplete vehicle(s) to which the document applies. The identification shall be by vehicle identification number (VIN) or groups of VINs to permit a person to ascertain positively that a document applies to a particular incomplete vehicle after the document has been removed from the vehicle.
(4) Gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the completed vehicle for which the incomplete vehicle is intended.
(5) Gross axle weight rating (GAWR) for each axle of the completed vehicle for which the incomplete vehicle is intended, listed and identified in order from front to rear (e.g., front, first intermediate, second intermediate, rear). The ratings for any consecutive axles having identical gross axle weight ratings when equipped with tires having the same tire size designation may, at the option of the incomplete vehicle manufacturer, be stated as a single value, with the label indicating to which axles the ratings apply.

Examples of combined ratings:​

(a) All axles—2,400 kg (5,290 lb) with LT245/75R16(E) tires;
(b) Front—5,215 kg (11,500 lb) with 295/75R22.5(G) tires.

(c) First intermediate to rear—9,070 kg (20,000 lb) with 295/75R22.5(G) tires.
(6) Listing of the vehicle types as defined in 49 CFR 571.3 (e.g., truck, MPV, bus, trailer) into which the incomplete vehicle may appropriately be manufactured.
(7) Listing, by number, of each standard, in effect at the time of manufacture of the incomplete vehicle, that applies to any of the vehicle types listed in paragraph (a)(6) of this section, followed in each case by one of the following three types of statement, as applicable:

(i) Type 1—A statement that the vehicle when completed will conform to the standard if no alterations are made in identified components of the incomplete vehicle.

Example: 104-This vehicle when completed will conform to FMVSS No. 104, Windshield Wiping and Washing Systems, if no alterations are made in the windshield wiper components.
(ii) Type 2—A statement of specific conditions of final manufacture under which the manufacturer specifies that the completed vehicle will conform to the standard.

Example: 121—This vehicle when completed will conform to FMVSS No. 121, Air Brake Systems, if it does not exceed any of the gross axle weight ratings, if the center of gravity at GVWR is not higher than nine feet above the ground, and if no alterations are made in any brake system component.
(iii) Type 3—A statement that conformity with the standard cannot be determined based upon the components supplied on the incomplete vehicle, and that the incomplete vehicle manufacturer makes no representation as to conformity with the standard.
(8) Each document shall contain a table of contents or chart summarizing all the standards applicable to the vehicle pursuant to 49 CFR 568.4(a)(7).
(9) A certification that the statements contained in the incomplete vehicle document are accurate as of the date of manufacture of the incomplete vehicle and can be used and relied on by any intermediate and/or final-stage manufacturer as a basis for certification.

(b) To the extent the IVD expressly incorporates by reference body builder or other design and engineering guidance (Reference Material), the incomplete vehicle manufacturer shall make such Reference Material readily available to subsequent manufacturers. Reference Materials incorporated by reference in the IVD shall be deemed to be part of the IVD.

(c) The IVD shall be attached to the incomplete vehicle in such a manner that it will not be inadvertently detached, or alternatively, it may be sent directly to a final-stage manufacturer, intermediate manufacturer or purchaser for purposes other than resale to whom the incomplete vehicle is delivered. The Reference Material in paragraph (b) of this section need not be attached to each vehicle.


It appears that Spartan, if they sent the proper documentation to Newmar is in no way at fault. Their duty if to create a VIN and ensure that said VIN accompanies the incomplete vehicle to the final builder. Freightliner handles the marking of the incomplete vehicle for the final builders. Spartan chose not to.
It seems the debate is, does a paper label that can't be removed without destroying the label suffice. 565.13 does say a part of the vehicle, not the frame specifically. I agree with Baron on the industry standards. I have been under literally hundreds of Dodges/Rams and saw the full vin stamped in the frame. I still think there are more than a few details that need to come to light.

 

[redbaron]

Not sure where you read that part 565 doesn't apply. This is just more detail.

The entire code has to be considered, not just select portions.

 

[Joe Dutchstar]

I researched putting a VIN on the frame. Unfortunately for an owner without specific DMV , or Manufacturer approval that is highly illegal. All sorts of Federal penalties and State penalties.
I’ll wait to see how this plays out. Newmar has a losing strategy so far.

 

[newmarokie]

Baron,
I assume that is addressed to me. I never said 565 doesn't apply. 568 directly applies to incomplete manufacturers ie., Spartan. They are not required in any way to do anything to affix or stamp the vin on a chassis that they produce that is being sent to a intermediate or final builder. They do have to create the vin according to all the steps following 565.13. The incomplete vehicle document is to be affixed to the chassis or mailed to the recipient according to 568. 565 does say the vin will be 17 digits. 565 also states "(e) The VIN of each vehicle shall appear clearly and indelibly upon either a part of the vehicle, other than the glazing, that is not designed to be removed except for repair or upon a separate plate or label that is permanently affixed to such a part." Now, the way that reads and including a plate or label as an option, stamping or engraving would seem to be the only other option. For the life of me, I can't understand what any manufacturer is thinking just stamping 5 digits on anything that has a VIN associated with it. If anyone was to look at a CMV going down the road they would see 8 digits on the side of the vehicle. That is due to Kentucky and their requirements. As I understand it, those last eight digits tell you everything you need to know about a particular vehicle. If a manufacturer that wasn't required to affix a vin to a vehicle was going to stamp the frame it should be 8 digits. As you read through 565 and the surrounding sections that are all tied together, there is a way for a manufacturer to request an alternate location. Did Newmar do something like this years ago? I don't know. If something like that was done and approval was given by NHTSA, that should been one of the first things to come out from Newmar. Not the communications fiasco that has ensued.

 

[redbaron]

Baron,
I assume that is addressed to me. I never said 565 doesn't apply. 568 directly applies to incomplete manufacturers ie., Spartan. They are not required in any way to do anything to affix or stamp the vin on a chassis that they produce that is being sent to a intermediate or final builder. They do have to create the vin according to all the steps following 565.13. The incomplete vehicle document is to be affixed to the chassis or mailed to the recipient according to 568. 565 does say the vin will be 17 digits. 565 also states "(e) The VIN of each vehicle shall appear clearly and indelibly upon either a part of the vehicle, other than the glazing, that is not designed to be removed except for repair or upon a separate plate or label that is permanently affixed to such a part." Now, the way that reads and including a plate or label as an option, stamping or engraving would seem to be the only other option. For the life of me, I can't understand what any manufacturer is thinking just stamping 5 digits on anything that has a VIN associated with it. If anyone was to look at a CMV going down the road they would see 8 digits on the side of the vehicle. That is due to Kentucky and their requirements. As I understand it, those last eight digits tell you everything you need to know about a particular vehicle. If a manufacturer that wasn't required to affix a vin to a vehicle was going to stamp the frame it should be 8 digits. As you read through 565 and the surrounding sections that are all tied together, there is a way for a manufacturer to request an alternate location. Did Newmar do something like this years ago? I don't know. If something like that was done and approval was given by NHTSA, that should been one of the first things to come out from Newmar. Not the communications fiasco that has ensued.

So does 565. All parts of 565 apply to Spartan before they ship to Newmar. I have chosen some excerpts to show the relevant part.

Bottom line - Spartan cannot ship to newmar without a permanent 17 digit vin affixed to the chassis.

§ 565.2 Application.​

(a)

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(2) of this section, subpart B of this part 565 applies to passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, buses, trailers (including trailer kits), incomplete vehicles, low speed vehicles, and motorcycles manufactured on or after October 27, 2008 whose VINs have a letter “A” or “B” in the 10th position, and to passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, buses, trailers (including trailer kits), incomplete vehicles, low speed vehicles, and motorcycles manufactured on or after April 30, 2009. Vehicles imported into the United States under 49 CFR 591.5(f), other than by the corporation responsible for the assembly of that vehicle or a subsidiary of such a corporation, are excluded from requirements of §§ 565.13(b), 565.13(c), 565.13(g), 565.13(h), 565.14 and 565.15.

§ 565.13 General requirements.​

(a) Each vehicle manufactured in one stage shall have a VIN that is assigned by the manufacturer. Each vehicle manufactured in more than one stage shall have a VIN assigned by the incomplete vehicle manufacturer. Vehicle alterers, as specified in 49 CFR 567.7, shall utilize the VIN assigned by the original manufacturer of the vehicle.

(e) The VIN of each vehicle shall appear clearly and indelibly upon either a part of the vehicle, other than the glazing, that is not designed to be removed except for repair or upon a separate plate or label that is permanently affixed to such a part.

 

[newmarokie]

Your red says assigned, not affixed. I said the same thing above. Spartan has to create the VIN.

 

[redbaron]

Part E applies to spartan. It’s what they do after (a) creating it.
Then they
(E) affix it.

All steps apply to Spartan

 

[newmarokie]

Well Baron, situations like this is why lawyers have a job. I disagree with your reading of the code and you disagree with mine.

 

[redbaron]

Circle back to this thread in a few weeks. Will be pretty clear what the right answer was once the pending actions are made public.