Plumbing Upgrades - Feedback wanted!

[DHudson]

Looks nice! Did you make the stainless pan? Mine is fiberglass that I cleaned up but doesn't look as nice as yours. If you want to automate your stuff, we are here to help.

Yes Sir, I made the pan.

 

[DHudson]

I I ever get my repaint and remodel done, I may go back and modify my wet bay with a closeout for the sewer hose like this. This is on a 2022 Newmar Super Star. Keeps all the nasty stuff out.

 

[DavidL]

I I ever get my repaint and remodel done, I may go back and modify my wet bay with a closeout for the sewer hose like this. This is on a 2022 Newmar Super Star. Keeps all the nasty stuff out.
View attachment 13975

Good idea, it does take up a lot of room. Not sure I will have enough space with the softener tank for that upgrade.

 

[DavidL]

Ok, latest pic updated in post 8.
This one should add the ability to auto regenerate the salt for the water softener.

Basically, the control system would divert the softener "output" to the salt "filter" (not really a filter but it looks like an upside down one) and also divert the water from the softener "input" to the drain. The Variable Flow valve would go to limited flow for 8 minutes (to put salt into the softener) and then shut off for a few minutes, and then go Wide open to flush the salt out of the softener for 20 minutes.

I need to source the variable flow valve...haven't got that detail "flushed" out yet. I am thinking that from the Normally Closed position, open the relay / valve for "one second" for partial flow, and "three seconds" to open the valve fully. Once salt is regenerated, then reverse the valve for "four seconds" until completely closed. Something like that. Once the system is operational, I can tweek the timings.

So after each softener event, one would just recharge the "salt filter" with two containers of table salt for the next time.

Note: The plumbing diagram would also work with manual three way / two way valves if you wanted to run the softener manually but without having to lug the softener in / out of the RV and without having to replumb it each time which is what most do today.

 

[DavidL]

hi Neal, Ok, looks like it's you and me defining this system
Anyone (including Neal ) have any further comments / ideas?
I cleaned up my water bay and am placing some hardware orders so it's starting to get on rails.

Thanx!!

 

[DavidL]

Ok, so here is about what got implemented. I had to get it functional for the HOOTS rally two weeks ago. In-between meeting HOOTs members, and Jeeping, etc, I started on the software to control the plumbing system.
First step was to get the Black / Grey tank dumping. Here is what works today:

Black Valve (blade valve) opens for D seconds. Black Valve closes. Grey Valve (blade valve) Opens for E seconds. Grey Valve closes. Black Flush valve (3 way valve - top right) opens for F seconds. Flush valve closes. Black Valve opens for G seconds. Black Valve closes.

So, all tanks get emptied and black gets flushed with a single button push. I will now put a "Docked Mode" button safety in place to ensure that the system is connected to an open refuse system before the Empty Button can be activated.

The timing for D,E,G can be long (multiple minutes) to ensure the tanks are fully empty before closing. The motor run for about 5 seconds to go full stroke. They are then turned off automatically. The blades don't care how long they are open or closed. The Flush timing F is just as long as you want the flush to be accomplished, but without filling the Black tank (that would be a problem). The valve motors automatically turn off their electric draw once they get full position so the motors don't care how long they are energized by the smart relays. There is a relay to Open, and a second relay to Close each valve. There are 8 relays to a relay hub and I am using two hubs (16 total relays). The relays are controlled by either Wifi or Ethernet. I choose Ethernet cable when possible to make the system more reliable.

The relays are controlled by our Allonis myServer 6 control system. All user interfaces, and timing / logic are controlled by myServer 6.

The Fresh water valve (far right top) controls campground water from entering the system. Plan is to use that so when the RV is not being monitored (at the store, Jeeping, at dinner, etc) that the Fresh valve closes to keep the possibility of flooding to a minimum if there was a leak somewhere.

There are manual valves to control softener regeneration. Just add salt to the filter chamber, and close the valve from softener RV plumbing, and turn on the fresh valve to the salt chamber and it will back flow the salt into the softener. Followed by a trickle of the water from the softener to the exterior drain hose. Today, this is all manual, but only takes a minute to change the modes. This could all be automated with more electric valves but I didn't think it was worth the investment.

There are motorized valves to select if the fresh tank is filled with softened water (valve above the grey flush) or city water (behind the softener).

I showed the working system to several at the HOOTs rally. Kinda neat watching / listening to the whirring motors, and seeing the drains function all by themselves

Today I will be testing the 3 way valve (far left) that selects if the pump pulls water from the Fresh Tank or from the Antifreeze hose.

I have to complete putting the trim panels on to hide the inner workings and clean it all up. I think one more trip to verify all is working nicely and then I'll complete the project.

Works nicely!
Thanx Neal for the thoughts.

 

[Neal]

Sounds great but I wouldn't be opening/closing black or grey based on time (seconds) but instead tank values. For example I would program it to dump black until it shows empty, close black and open grey, dump until it shows empty. If you can't read those values then yeah you'd have to fall back to time.

 

[DavidL]

Hi Neal, Yes, I agree...but I haven't integrated tank level sensing just yet. It's still all sitting on my bench and not in my RV I have RV-C / SeeLevel system, and the stock Newmar system (capacitance), and the old fashioned in tank sensors on the bench.

I notice that when one dumps, the tank shows empty, yet there is still a few minutes worth of "stuff" that continues to flow out. And certainly we all know that tank level sensors are chronically inaccurate and unreliable. Hopefully the automatic regular flushing will help that.

Hmmm, got me thinking...probably should open the Flush valve for a few seconds to put a little bit of water on the floor of the black tank to keep any solids from drying out and sticking for good...

 

[DavidL]

Picture of my in process wetbay automation plumbing. The electric valve on the top right (blue) is for controlling all fresh water into the RV. The orange 3 way valve next to it is for controlling the black water flush.

Behind the water softener is a valve to control fresh water fill.
And to the left of the softener is another blue valve (2 way) to control Softened water fill.

Far left is a 3 way orange valve to control antifreeze vs. water into the system for auto winterizing.

All controlled by electric relays that are controlled by our myServer 6 automation system. You could also wire it to simple switches. The relays are in the electric bay to the left of the wetbay to keep the electrons out of the wet. The myServer controller is located above the RV dashboard where the old Tube TV used to be (replace the out of date electronics with the latest and greatest!) I am using ethernet to network the two together, but Wifi can also be easily used. Wires are just more reliable and I prepulled lots of wires when I rebuilt the coach just for projects like this.

Since it is now tested to all work, next step is to tighty it up and put the facia cosmetic board in front of the rats nest to make it look pretty.

Since the difference between Pump vs. City water is all contained within the wetbay that has a drain, the only real difference is On vs. Off. And with the Fresh water valve, now both pump AND city water can be controlled On vs. Off with same ease. So, if the City water has decent quality and pressure, use the City and Save the pump.

It would be super easy to add water detection sensors all around the coach to tell the system "Shut Down the water!" which would then flip the relays to put all the valves to the Safe position. This would protect all water sources EXCEPT the HydroHot / AquaHot antifreeze section (which on last trip, had a slight leak on a fitting that needed a little more tightening).

Of course if the Fresh Water tank had a leak, then the only safety would be to drain the tank hopefully before any damage. This could be accomplished by putting motor valves on the fresh drain line. That could also be used to auto winterize the system. But again, that's more $ and not sure it's worth it. Plus that drain line on my RV is a 1/2" line that takes hours to drain. So, if a hose broke (like the same drain line), damage would still be there. That drain line is on the far left behind the orange antifreeze motor valve.

The system could still alert you via a text message if there was a leak detected (if the RV was online). You can also get an email with the fault. A function of the myServer 6 automation controller.

The water softener and filters are there if the City water is a little hard / iron filled for quality. I have a short double ended connection hose to remove the softener and still have a tight water system. But the valves allow for this mode anyway. The hose is there to ensure if a valve is bumped open, then no leaks. I will use the softener bypass hose when in Winterized mode to put the softener in a house warm space. You don't want antifreeze in your softener resin...

The valve design allows for salt regeneration without having to replumb / remove the softener. The salt container is behind the softener and controlled by that messy 3 way valving on the softener. This could be made automatic, but that would be 4 X $35 for additional motorized valves and more bulk.

The manual valve on the bottom right is to plug in a regulated air line to flush the system before antifreeze. It also can be used to drain that portion of the system.

And for completeness, there are also two Barker Waste Valves in the system to drain the refuse tanks automatically.

Next phase is to integrate Tank Level sensing....here is a picture of the "laboratory" to figure out software to monitor the various fluid sensors. the 7 Up bottle has the SeeLevel RV-C sensors (yup that's real 7Up soda / pop in that container ). The water pitcher has a capacitance sensor used in my Wakesurf boat ballast tanks. The capacitance sensor on the shelf is for gas level sensing for boats.

Now, if I put a sensor on the HydroHot reservoir, then I could have detected the antifreeze level had dropped (it had a leak)....at a minimum, send a text message.

All is managed and controlled via any browser equipped device that is connected to the ethernet / Wifi network in the RV (or anywhere). I am using the Android "head unit" in the dashboard, a handheld iPad, my Microsoft Surface laptop. Very soon we will create webpages for our new "SmartRemote" that will be the nifty way to control the systems and all the media too (like TV watching).

 

[LMHS]

For my automatic fresh water shut off, I went to a farm supply store and bought a "stock tank float valve" (in 2010). Cheap, easy and doesn't require any fancy stuff. Also easy to replace if I should ever need to. It was mounted into a Valterra ABS tank. I only use water from my fresh tank. Once it goes thru my filters, the flow was reduced to a trickle, it was better to simply let the fresh tank fill slowly and then use the float valve to shut off the water supply once the tank level got high enough.