Plumbing Upgrades - Feedback wanted!

[DavidL]

Hi, I pulled my water system apart about a year ago with the intent to clean it all up, modernize, automate, etc.
With the Hoots pending trip, now I need to get the water system together finally.
Looking for some feedback on the system design as I keep getting distracted with pesky work stuff that keeps real progress from happening.

some of the Wants (feel free to add more good ideas)
1) automatic water fill - requires an electric water valve and accurate level sensing (likely will use SeeLevel sensors). Ability to fill via the softener in small doses to keep the softener up to speed. Or, bypass the softener if filling from a known good source (like my house). Gravity Feed port with valve (can be used for shocking).
2) new water line to front generator area to connect to an electric power washer for windshield cleaning. Ability to choose / mix hot and cold water.
3) pressure sensors both pre and post regulator
4) water softener for applicable lines (faucets / shower / laundry) PLUS a way to automagically backflush and replenish salt (haven't figured this one out yet)
5) electric dump valves (already in place)
6) Black / Grey flush with backflow valve that doesn't have softener or regulator in line to drop the water pressure. Using electric valve to automate this. Possible pressure washer connection to really clean the tanks regularly without mess with new nozzles and lines.
7) Certainly more accurate level sensing. SeaLevel ( or DIY) capacitance and / or pressure sensors monitored via myServer control system.
8) Water usage meter / reporting (either using level sensing and / or flow sensor)
9) Auto winterizing - electric valves to dump, electric 3 way valve to push antifreeze into system, electric valve to control quick disconnect, regulated air supply from an external compressor. Idea is Push the Winterizing button and it does it's thing.
10) electrically choose between using on board fresh tank and outboard water supply post filter and softener.
11) Ability to shutoff Offboard water to cycle inboard water (keep it fresh)...thanx Neal!
12) Shutoff water supply in case of leak sense tripped.

I have attached a pic of the water system that does not accomplish many of the above...but it needs to be enhanced so it does and then I can start mounting and plumbing things together, connect the myServer 6 relays and control system and work on the software logic (the "easy stuff").

Please provide some feedback!!!

 

[Neal]

I'm thinking of adding an electric valve so I can turn off city water from inside the coach. I want to better cycle my fresh tank and of course never go outside

 

[DavidL]

I'm thinking of adding an electric valve so I can turn off city water from inside the coach. I want to better cycle my fresh tank and of course never go outside

Good idea! added to the Want List and Pic
Oh, and the side benefit is that with Leak Sensor(s), that can be the main shutoff valve to minimize water damage (feature added to list)

 

[Rosy]

I feel like a dolt with my rinky dink setup.

#2 is accomplished with a three way valve ("y-valve"?) at the city water connection and an extra 50 ft hose in the front compartment.

What Neal wants is accomplished with a quarter turn ball valve at the connection from the hose to my trailer (except the not going outside part - nuts to that).

 

[DavidL]

I feel like a dolt with my rinky dink setup.

#2 is accomplished with a three way valve ("y-valve"?) at the city water connection and an extra 50 ft hose in the front compartment.

What Neal wants is accomplished with a quarter turn ball valve at the connection from the hose to my trailer (except the not going outside part - nuts to that).

sure...all of what you say is true. We are getting to the "next level". Next Level will be further defined in subsequent posts. RV Modes of Operation. AUTOMATION of the subsystem interactions well beyond what the RV OEMs do today.

The idea is it should know what mode it is in, and to optimize the subsystems for the owner. So many posts are by people that have zero understanding of their subsystems and how to interact with them. Many "If / Then / Else" situations that the current owner's need to understand and deal with like: I am parked at a campground and it's about 60F temp, which heating system should I use? Choices: hmmm, not driving, so not engine heat...are you connected to campground electric? why yes you are...so choices are AquaHot electric or diesel or Dometic heat pump? Hmm, let's try Dometic Heat Pump on Heat mode. Or should that be Aquahot electric?
If you weren't connected to landline, then sure, use Diesel heat. But since it's above 45F, then use the Heat Pump as we all know (do we?), HeatPumps don't work below that.... Very confusing for most anyone.

So, with better technology - why should they care / need to know? Anyway, that's the hypothesis.

 

[DavidL]

Any feedback / new ideas other than Neal's?

 

[Neal]

Any feedback / new ideas other than Neal's?

Does that mean I can't offer more ideas

I see you have "manual" handles on fresh fill and black tank rinse. I'd also want those automated. I'd love to be able to enable black tank rinse from within the coach. For example I dump black, I rinse black, dump black, dump gray. The rinse black would be fill to 80% and then dump, maybe repeat one more cycle, then dump then dump gray.

 

[DavidL]

Does that mean I can't offer more ideas

I see you have "manual" handles on fresh fill and black tank rinse. I'd also want those automated. I'd love to be able to enable black tank rinse from within the coach. For example I dump black, I rinse black, dump black, dump gray. The rinse black would be fill to 80% and then dump, maybe repeat one more cycle, then dump then dump gray.

The Fresh Fill is supported by a 3 way valve connected to the hose reel. When unpowered (relay off), the fresh water input goes to the softner to rest of water system. When relay is energized, the 3 way goes full tilt to flush the black tank. The manual valve is there to the secondary Black flush valve if you want to connect a hose directly to the flush. Just connect and swing the manual valve. But most of the time, from anywhere from your "phone", "tablet", dash "head unit", etc you just click the Flush button to move the 3 way valve to invoke flushing.

Need to double check if I updated the pic with the above. EDIT: I guess I can't edit the first post anymore, so here is my latest pic.

But yes, I agree on your feature want. This will all be automated as well so no need to click a "flush" button as it will be choreographed with the Dump that will also be automated based on connection status (connected to waste disposal) and Tank if getting Full indicators.

I am considering putting motor valves on the three drain lines to be part of the auto winterizing / flush / sanitizing capabilities. Just more $ in valves (about $40 per valve plus a relay). So, is that worth it?

Yes, please continue bringing on the good ideas. I guess I should have worded that different

 

[DHudson]

Dang it, now your going to make me go back and redo mine.. AGAIN! LOL

 

[DavidL]

Dang it, now your going to make me go back and redo mine.. AGAIN! LOL
View attachment 13964

Looks nice! Did you make the stainless pan? Mine is fiberglass that I cleaned up but doesn't look as nice as yours. If you want to automate your stuff, we are here to help.

 

[DHudson]

Looks nice! Did you make the stainless pan? Mine is fiberglass that I cleaned up but doesn't look as nice as yours. If you want to automate your stuff, we are here to help.

Yes Sir, I made the pan.

 

[DHudson]

I I ever get my repaint and remodel done, I may go back and modify my wet bay with a closeout for the sewer hose like this. This is on a 2022 Newmar Super Star. Keeps all the nasty stuff out.

 

[DavidL]

I I ever get my repaint and remodel done, I may go back and modify my wet bay with a closeout for the sewer hose like this. This is on a 2022 Newmar Super Star. Keeps all the nasty stuff out.
View attachment 13975

Good idea, it does take up a lot of room. Not sure I will have enough space with the softener tank for that upgrade.

 

[DavidL]

Ok, latest pic updated in post 8.
This one should add the ability to auto regenerate the salt for the water softener.

Basically, the control system would divert the softener "output" to the salt "filter" (not really a filter but it looks like an upside down one) and also divert the water from the softener "input" to the drain. The Variable Flow valve would go to limited flow for 8 minutes (to put salt into the softener) and then shut off for a few minutes, and then go Wide open to flush the salt out of the softener for 20 minutes.

I need to source the variable flow valve...haven't got that detail "flushed" out yet. I am thinking that from the Normally Closed position, open the relay / valve for "one second" for partial flow, and "three seconds" to open the valve fully. Once salt is regenerated, then reverse the valve for "four seconds" until completely closed. Something like that. Once the system is operational, I can tweek the timings.

So after each softener event, one would just recharge the "salt filter" with two containers of table salt for the next time.

Note: The plumbing diagram would also work with manual three way / two way valves if you wanted to run the softener manually but without having to lug the softener in / out of the RV and without having to replumb it each time which is what most do today.

 

[DavidL]

hi Neal, Ok, looks like it's you and me defining this system
Anyone (including Neal ) have any further comments / ideas?
I cleaned up my water bay and am placing some hardware orders so it's starting to get on rails.

Thanx!!

 

[DavidL]

Ok, so here is about what got implemented. I had to get it functional for the HOOTS rally two weeks ago. In-between meeting HOOTs members, and Jeeping, etc, I started on the software to control the plumbing system.
First step was to get the Black / Grey tank dumping. Here is what works today:

Black Valve (blade valve) opens for D seconds. Black Valve closes. Grey Valve (blade valve) Opens for E seconds. Grey Valve closes. Black Flush valve (3 way valve - top right) opens for F seconds. Flush valve closes. Black Valve opens for G seconds. Black Valve closes.

So, all tanks get emptied and black gets flushed with a single button push. I will now put a "Docked Mode" button safety in place to ensure that the system is connected to an open refuse system before the Empty Button can be activated.

The timing for D,E,G can be long (multiple minutes) to ensure the tanks are fully empty before closing. The motor run for about 5 seconds to go full stroke. They are then turned off automatically. The blades don't care how long they are open or closed. The Flush timing F is just as long as you want the flush to be accomplished, but without filling the Black tank (that would be a problem). The valve motors automatically turn off their electric draw once they get full position so the motors don't care how long they are energized by the smart relays. There is a relay to Open, and a second relay to Close each valve. There are 8 relays to a relay hub and I am using two hubs (16 total relays). The relays are controlled by either Wifi or Ethernet. I choose Ethernet cable when possible to make the system more reliable.

The relays are controlled by our Allonis myServer 6 control system. All user interfaces, and timing / logic are controlled by myServer 6.

The Fresh water valve (far right top) controls campground water from entering the system. Plan is to use that so when the RV is not being monitored (at the store, Jeeping, at dinner, etc) that the Fresh valve closes to keep the possibility of flooding to a minimum if there was a leak somewhere.

There are manual valves to control softener regeneration. Just add salt to the filter chamber, and close the valve from softener RV plumbing, and turn on the fresh valve to the salt chamber and it will back flow the salt into the softener. Followed by a trickle of the water from the softener to the exterior drain hose. Today, this is all manual, but only takes a minute to change the modes. This could all be automated with more electric valves but I didn't think it was worth the investment.

There are motorized valves to select if the fresh tank is filled with softened water (valve above the grey flush) or city water (behind the softener).

I showed the working system to several at the HOOTs rally. Kinda neat watching / listening to the whirring motors, and seeing the drains function all by themselves

Today I will be testing the 3 way valve (far left) that selects if the pump pulls water from the Fresh Tank or from the Antifreeze hose.

I have to complete putting the trim panels on to hide the inner workings and clean it all up. I think one more trip to verify all is working nicely and then I'll complete the project.

Works nicely!
Thanx Neal for the thoughts.

 

[Neal]

Sounds great but I wouldn't be opening/closing black or grey based on time (seconds) but instead tank values. For example I would program it to dump black until it shows empty, close black and open grey, dump until it shows empty. If you can't read those values then yeah you'd have to fall back to time.

 

[DavidL]

Hi Neal, Yes, I agree...but I haven't integrated tank level sensing just yet. It's still all sitting on my bench and not in my RV I have RV-C / SeeLevel system, and the stock Newmar system (capacitance), and the old fashioned in tank sensors on the bench.

I notice that when one dumps, the tank shows empty, yet there is still a few minutes worth of "stuff" that continues to flow out. And certainly we all know that tank level sensors are chronically inaccurate and unreliable. Hopefully the automatic regular flushing will help that.

Hmmm, got me thinking...probably should open the Flush valve for a few seconds to put a little bit of water on the floor of the black tank to keep any solids from drying out and sticking for good...

 

[DavidL]

Picture of my in process wetbay automation plumbing. The electric valve on the top right (blue) is for controlling all fresh water into the RV. The orange 3 way valve next to it is for controlling the black water flush.

Behind the water softener is a valve to control fresh water fill.
And to the left of the softener is another blue valve (2 way) to control Softened water fill.

Far left is a 3 way orange valve to control antifreeze vs. water into the system for auto winterizing.

All controlled by electric relays that are controlled by our myServer 6 automation system. You could also wire it to simple switches. The relays are in the electric bay to the left of the wetbay to keep the electrons out of the wet. The myServer controller is located above the RV dashboard where the old Tube TV used to be (replace the out of date electronics with the latest and greatest!) I am using ethernet to network the two together, but Wifi can also be easily used. Wires are just more reliable and I prepulled lots of wires when I rebuilt the coach just for projects like this.

Since it is now tested to all work, next step is to tighty it up and put the facia cosmetic board in front of the rats nest to make it look pretty.

Since the difference between Pump vs. City water is all contained within the wetbay that has a drain, the only real difference is On vs. Off. And with the Fresh water valve, now both pump AND city water can be controlled On vs. Off with same ease. So, if the City water has decent quality and pressure, use the City and Save the pump.

It would be super easy to add water detection sensors all around the coach to tell the system "Shut Down the water!" which would then flip the relays to put all the valves to the Safe position. This would protect all water sources EXCEPT the HydroHot / AquaHot antifreeze section (which on last trip, had a slight leak on a fitting that needed a little more tightening).

Of course if the Fresh Water tank had a leak, then the only safety would be to drain the tank hopefully before any damage. This could be accomplished by putting motor valves on the fresh drain line. That could also be used to auto winterize the system. But again, that's more $ and not sure it's worth it. Plus that drain line on my RV is a 1/2" line that takes hours to drain. So, if a hose broke (like the same drain line), damage would still be there. That drain line is on the far left behind the orange antifreeze motor valve.

The system could still alert you via a text message if there was a leak detected (if the RV was online). You can also get an email with the fault. A function of the myServer 6 automation controller.

The water softener and filters are there if the City water is a little hard / iron filled for quality. I have a short double ended connection hose to remove the softener and still have a tight water system. But the valves allow for this mode anyway. The hose is there to ensure if a valve is bumped open, then no leaks. I will use the softener bypass hose when in Winterized mode to put the softener in a house warm space. You don't want antifreeze in your softener resin...

The valve design allows for salt regeneration without having to replumb / remove the softener. The salt container is behind the softener and controlled by that messy 3 way valving on the softener. This could be made automatic, but that would be 4 X $35 for additional motorized valves and more bulk.

The manual valve on the bottom right is to plug in a regulated air line to flush the system before antifreeze. It also can be used to drain that portion of the system.

And for completeness, there are also two Barker Waste Valves in the system to drain the refuse tanks automatically.

Next phase is to integrate Tank Level sensing....here is a picture of the "laboratory" to figure out software to monitor the various fluid sensors. the 7 Up bottle has the SeeLevel RV-C sensors (yup that's real 7Up soda / pop in that container ). The water pitcher has a capacitance sensor used in my Wakesurf boat ballast tanks. The capacitance sensor on the shelf is for gas level sensing for boats.

Now, if I put a sensor on the HydroHot reservoir, then I could have detected the antifreeze level had dropped (it had a leak)....at a minimum, send a text message.

All is managed and controlled via any browser equipped device that is connected to the ethernet / Wifi network in the RV (or anywhere). I am using the Android "head unit" in the dashboard, a handheld iPad, my Microsoft Surface laptop. Very soon we will create webpages for our new "SmartRemote" that will be the nifty way to control the systems and all the media too (like TV watching).

 

[LMHS]

For my automatic fresh water shut off, I went to a farm supply store and bought a "stock tank float valve" (in 2010). Cheap, easy and doesn't require any fancy stuff. Also easy to replace if I should ever need to. It was mounted into a Valterra ABS tank. I only use water from my fresh tank. Once it goes thru my filters, the flow was reduced to a trickle, it was better to simply let the fresh tank fill slowly and then use the float valve to shut off the water supply once the tank level got high enough.