2024 Newmar New Aire

[MarkMaxPayne]

Success! I talked to T. J. at OffTheGridRV in Quartzite, AZ. They are an authorized Lithionics dealer. TJ has added the 3rd Lithionics battery to 3 "Luxury" Newmar coaches. Last one being a new Mountain Aire. T.J.'s current price is around $6,900 for the full install versus $10,000 as a factory option. The 3 port parallel combiner box is more expensive than I thought at $1,300 and is included in that price. Battery alone is $4,600. Apparently there are no SilverLeaf changes needed to support a 3rd battery. All configuration of the Lithionics BMS is done through the Bluetooth Lithionics app. The Lithionics BMS then echos information to SilverLeaf via the RV-Can network. With the parts, installation is fast and easy according to TJ. TJ needs about a month lead time for the some parts.

Everything here applies to any new "Luxury" Newmar model with Lithionics batteries. Here is the complete installation in the Mountain Aire.

View attachment 20752

Noice!!! Please keep us up to date. I may be looking for a plan B here real soon. I took my rig into the dealer for a scheduled service appointment to deal with some typical new rig issues I didn't want to fix myself at this time given the warranty (shorted docking lights wire, flickering climate control dash light, passenger privacy screen stuttering, cracking grout lines around a tile in front of kitchen sink, replace bad SurchGuard display, etc.). They still didn't have a quote from Newmar for this 3rd battery upgrade work despite the repeated asks. I can't tell if they just don't want to do it and are stalling (hoping I'll forget or give up), are just that unorganized, or cannot get the answers from the mothership. That said I added it to their list (again).

In other news have I ever shared how much I love having Amazon Blink security cameras installed and connected to an AT&T MiFi in the rig? Nothing like catching on video the guy driving the rig to where they park/store them and what he says to himself as he does something to the rig on the way or while parking it. Timestamps on myrozie camera captured a basement door open at the same timestamp as him chastising himself. Will be curious how that sorts out when it comes time to pickup the rig...

Best,
-Mark

 

[turbopilot]

Noice!!! Please keep us up to date. I may be looking for a plan B here real soon. I took my rig into the dealer for a scheduled service appointment to deal with some typical new rig issues I didn't want to fix myself at this time given the warranty (shorted docking lights wire, flickering climate control dash light, passenger privacy screen stuttering, cracking grout lines around a tile in front of kitchen sink, replace bad SurchGuard display, etc.). They still didn't have a quote from Newmar for this 3rd battery upgrade work despite the repeated asks. I can't tell if they just don't want to do it and are stalling (hoping I'll forget or give up), are just that unorganized, or cannot get the answers from the mothership. That said I added it to their list (again).

In other news have I ever shared how much I love having Amazon Blink security cameras installed and connected to an AT&T MiFi in the rig? Nothing like catching on video the guy driving the rig to where they park/store them and what he says to himself as he does something to the rig on the way or while parking it. Timestamps on myrozie camera captured a basement door open at the same timestamp as him chastising himself. Will be curious how that sorts out when it comes time to pickup the rig...

Best,
-Mark

Since selling my 2018 NA two years ago I have been pulling around an all electric Airstream trailer. It has 4 corner WiFi cameras with all the security features. Will do something similar on the NA when I get it. The NA 360 camera system really missed the mark by not having active security built in. Here is a link to my Airstream setup.

 

[turbopilot]

Noice!!! Please keep us up to date. I may be looking for a plan B here real soon.

Just give TJ a call at OffTheGridRV and talk over your needs. You will find he is very familiar with Newmars. I told him I had a few friends out West that may need his help.

 

[turbopilot]

Mountain Aire 3823 versus the New Aire 3543

I thought I would share more of my analysis that led up to placing an order for a NA3543. This is not an exercise in confirmation bias. This represents my due diligence leading up to ordering an NA3543 versus some other choice.

The Mountain Aire 3823 was a surprise and really of some interest when I first saw it. It is a clear play to the downsizing movement beginning with the NA3343. More people want a luxury RV in a small package and I am one of those. For me, it is not an issue of affordability, my desire is to move about in the nicest, smallest machine I can without sacrificing the quality of life for two people. In 2017 I really thought the NA3343 was the answer. But after two years with the machine I decided the NA3343 was a few feet short of a sweet spot. The machine needed more power, torque, diesel storage and a King bed. We were very comfortable in the 33' coach, it was the other stuff that was not quite right.

So earlier this year when I saw the improvements in the NA3543 and the introduction of the MA3823, I thought I would start kicking the tires again.

The Mountain Aire 3823 is an interesting machine. It has "nearly" everything the bigger MA's have all wrapped up in a short, stubby package. The MA3823 reminds me of the Boeing 747SP. I was working for TWA when we took delivery of six 747SP's. We thought they were the answer for international travel. They had the same engines, same fuel tanks and could fly most anywhere in the world non stop. Everything an international airline needed except it had no belly. Boeing cleverly removed most of the belly cargo capacity to shorten and lighten up the 747SP. On many routes TWA made as much from what it carried in the belly as it did with the passengers in the cabin.

And so the Mountain Aire 3823 follows in the same path. Shortening up the Mountain Aire and leaving on those tag axles removed a lot of the belly space in the coach. As a matter of fact the MA3823 is three feet longer than the NA 3543 but has less belly storage.

This can be easily seen in the side view of both coaches.

New Aire

Mountain Aire

The Mountain Aire can carry in excess of 8,000 lbs of people, cargo, diesel and water. The New Aire can only carry about 4,000 lbs of people, cargo, diesel and water. But where are you going to put 4,000 lbs more cargo in a Mountain Aire? Maybe if you are hauling gold but there is simply not enough belly space to carry all the weight. Exactly the problem with the 747SP

Then there is the issue of the size of the engine. The Mountain Aire has 75 more horsepower 450 ft-lbs more torque but when you load the Mountain Aire (if you can) to the maximum weight, the power loading of the Mountain Aire is 25% less than the New Aire. When you compare the models carrying the same weight the New Aire still has the edge in power loading.

How can this be? It is because an empty Mountain Aire 3820 weighs 9,000 lbs more than an empty New Aire 3543. With those tag axles, it is a heavy bus. The MA also has a frontal flat plate area about 8% greater than the NA, so it has to push a lot of air aside to move down the road.

And then there is the price. Price was not top of my list as a concern but the base price of a MA3820 is $200,000 more than the NA3543. That is a lot of money for a RV three feet longer with most fit and finish items about the same.

Below is a chart I put together comparing the models. It is tough to get real life delivered weights but it appears the brochure weights are about 2,000 lbs less than the highly loaded coaches that are ultimately sold.

There are a lot of moving part to these "small bus" luxury RV's. But just like airliners, the stretch models usually work out better than shortening a longer model. The MA3820 "SP" does not appear to be a good compromise. Without those tag axles many things would change and for a short bus I don't think they add that much.

 

[Rd1]

Thank you turbopilot, very nicely done. You are spot on the MA very limited compartment storage space. I think most people get carried away with the bells and whistles, let alone do a due diligence as you have done. I suspect once they sell a bunch of the MA38s, we'll start hearing more about this limited storage short coming. Though, Newmar has option to improve on the storage capacity (see below), but it is hard to beat the rest of your comparisons.

Some years back at the factory I saw a KADP with a very narrow compartment(all the way thru) right behind the freezer compartment. This was for the AGM batts. The KADP had 16 of them in a sliding tray that could be pulled out on either side.

The 38 MADP "seem" to have sufficient space to accommodate a similar option. This will free up the existing batt/inverter compartment located on the L front.

If you look at the 5min mark of the video, you will see the double door compartment on the R-side, obviously has plenty of space. If you look thru all the way to the other side, you see the back side of the oasis compartment . There is plenty of free and unused space in front of the oasis(14min mark). With some adjustment, it "looks"like they have sufficient room to accommodate a narrow compartment right behind the freezer and the front side of the double compartment. This narrow compartment can house the LI batts on one side (with room to expand the batts) and place the inverters on the other side. This can be on a slidding tray to accommodate any maintenance of the inverter and/or the LI Batts.

You lose a bit of space from the double door compartment, but gain asignificant space on the L front compartment.

The KADP I saw, was special ordered with that narrow batt compartment. It "maybe" possible that Newmar may consider such adjustment on a custom order feature as well.

 

[Rd1]

There are a few other point to consider, depending on your preferences;

NA v MA38

For spartan chassis K2 v K3
Drum brakes on drive axle v disc on drive and tag axles
Allison 3000 v 4000
8k Gen v 10K Gen
NA tow rating is 10k, but thats for flat tow, trailer tow is 5k with 500 tongue. v MA 15k and 1500 tongue

a few items come to mind, nonetheless, the limiting compartment space with the MA38s is very limiting.

 

[turbopilot]

There are a few other point to consider, depending on your preferences;

NA v MA38

For spartan chassis K2 v K3
Drum brakes on drive axle v disc on drive and tag axles
Allison 3000 v 4000
8k Gen v 10K Gen
NA tow rating is 10k, but thats for flat tow, trailer tow is 5k with 500 tongue. v MA 15k and 1500 tongue

a few items come to mind, nonetheless, the limiting compartment space with the MA38s is very limiting.

Thanks for those additional items. I don't know much about the MA line except what I read in the brochures. I would like to understand the real world differences in comparing the two coaches.

For spartan chassis K2 v K3

At least for the short busses I am having a hard time understanding the merits of an $11,000 premium chassis. I do like the fit and finish of the Spartan engine installation compared to the Frieghtliner but the real differences are the rear disc brakes and a different approach to front suspension. For this comparison I think putting the tag axle on the MA3823 was a mistake. An MA3823 without that tag axle would be a clear advantage but I still think a machine configured to carry that much cargo would never be able to fit into a 38' coach even without the tag.

Allison 3000 v 4000

I presume this difference is because of the 10,000 lb base weight/cargo capacity advantage of the MA.

8k Gen v 10K Gen

Slide out generator is a plus for the MA3823 that I should have mentioned. But with only two AC units is the additional 2K needed? By the way a minus for both the NA and MA is only 2 AC units. Both units need 3 AC's.

NA tow rating is 10k, but thats for flat tow, trailer tow is 5k with 500 tongue. v MA 15k and 1500 tongue

Clear advantage to the MA.

I did not talk about the interior comparisons. The major differences between the NA3543 and the MA3823 appears (based on videos) to be the an additional short coach in the MA and more kitchen counter space. The NA has one long (87") couch while the MA has two shorter apposing couches. I think the refrigerator is upgraded in the MA. Did you see any other major differences inside?

 

[Rd1]

I don't know much about the MA line except what I read in the brochures. I would like to understand the real world differences in comparing the two coaches.

One way to look at it is, the NA was the small version of the hi-lines. MA38 may be the higher end of the NA, in small package. There are a lot of units towing stacker trailers. A 7' reduction in the overall length makes a noticeable difference. There are also those who like the hi-end units, but are a bit weary of the 45s. A 38 can make a nice difference.

Just like you discovered the first version NA's had some concerns, which are now being resolved. The MA38's likely go thru the same evolution in a few years.

At least for the short busses I am having a hard time understanding the merits of an $11,000 premium chassis.

What I see and like maybe different than what you may consider worthwhile. One option I can suggest, find a dealer that has the NAs on both the Freightliner and Spartan. Take them for a spin back to back, same road, same tests. Besides the normal driving, you may want to consider a bit more assertive driving style. After all, the benefit of a proper chassis design comes into play when you have to deal with adversity while driving. Obviously under control, you can try faster lane changes, faster turning, breaking while turning, harder braking, some slaloms. These can provide real feed back for evasive maneuvering in a real life scenarios. Further, if they have a MA38, even better, to compare the NA platform with the MA, at the same time. Chassis is your connection to the road. Even if you always drive 'slow' and cautious, while driving, always expect the unexpected. The best way for you to evaluate any perceived chassis benefit, is for you to give them a bit of stress in your own driving style.

Allison3000 v 4000

Thats an engine torque/HP issue. Bigger trans for a higher engine output. Obviously 4 is bigger, heavier, more oil, etc..

Both units need 3 AC's.

That may be the case. However, I wonder how much of that may be due to insulation issues. I know they advertise considerable insulation layers. I think it “maybe” more of a workmanship issue. From my experience, they leave some gaps here and there, plus the slides that are often not sealed properly. If you are in warm weathers, you notice it is often too warm inside. But, if you were often in colder and windy weather, then there is a better chance of noticing the cold draft inside. I think this is where they have issue. The fast pace assembly line, anything goes. Unfortunately.

I did not talk about the interior comparisons.

I think one way to compare the two 'maybe' comparing a 43 DS to a 45MA. I wasn't sure if the convection maybe smaller in the NA? The basement freezer seems much smaller. Obviously they don't have the front TV in the NA, not a big deal, but means you have to use the televator constantly. I personally very rarely used the televator, in a few special occasions. That space could be used to make more room for when the slides are all closed up.

Last, if you have the option, consider visiting the factory. Every show I've been to with spartan on display, the freightliner's comparable chassis was missing. If you go to factory, you can see both in their original state. Further, with the mods newmar does to the NA original chassis, I think it 'maybe' worthwhile to see what they do and ask the newmar chassis people, what, if any, differences they see.

Plus, one of the advantages newmar has compared to many (except Newell, etc.) is the customization. You can't change the paint scheme, but can change all the colors. Why not make something in your own like. At the factory, you get to see all the different color combinations and other options for inside. Plus talk directly to people who decide what can or can't be done. Given the investment, whatever additional features you like, try to add them. In my experience, their prices seemed reasonable. Now, there maybe customization that the production may deny. Some are due to production limitations. But,I've found that, the service would be happy to accommodate. So if you consider an FPU, have service plan on making those mods for your FPU.

 

[turbopilot]

Last, if you have the option, consider visiting the factory. Every show I've been to with spartan on display, the freightliner's comparable chassis was missing. If you go to factory, you can see both in their original state. Further, with the mods newmar does to the NA original chassis, I think it 'maybe' worthwhile to see what they do and ask the newmar chassis people, what, if any, differences they see.

Thanks for your thoughts. I am sure it will be helpful for others as well.

The Freightliner versus Spartan debate is really interesting. I came to my decision to go with Freightliner with no real bias. I did talk to a number of Newmar dealers during my search who strongly steered me away from Spartan. When pressed for reasons the response was often vague but they often mentioned the hassles with the DEF problems. I am sure it has been a problem for dealers as well as customers.

One factor may be there just is not a lot of experience with both chassis in the class of "mid 30 foot" class A's, either by owners or dealers. Test driving a NA on both chassis is not practical today. Almost all the 2023 NA inventory still on dealers lots is Spartan. Only a couple of 2024 NA's have arrived at dealers and they are Spartan. I have not seen a dealer that had a Spartan and a Freightliner NA on the lot at the same time. As of last week IRVC has not received any 2024 Newmar models at any of the dealers around the country.

All this with the backdrop to the fact I put a lot of miles on a 33' NA with a FreightLiner chassis and was totally satisfied with ride. Lack of torque from the Cummins motor was my only issue with the chassis (and the recalls around the chassis electrical module). Another 20" in wheelbase between the 33' and 35' NA is unlikely to change the quality of the ride.

As to the air conditioning for these "mid 30 foot coaches", I operate out of the desert Southwest in temperatures that can go over 120F and nominal Summer time temperatures of 110F. 30,000 BTU's of cooling is not sufficient. You can keep it comfortable driving with generator on, both coach AC's on and the dash AC unit running. But once you stop it really gets hot and the AC's cannot keep up at high temperatures and full sun without the dash AC running. It is much worse aft in the bedroom. The problem is the thermal mass of the engine and no airflow. When it is hot it takes 8 to 12 hours to cool the aft end of the coach with AC's running full time. Sunset solves the problem but it is slow. Other manufacturers have engine bay cooling fans to cool down the coach after you shut down. Running the dash AC is not an option as it requires running the diesel engine that continues to heat up the aft end of the coach. I don't think there is sufficient skin/floor thickness to insulate your way out of this problem. More BTU's of cooling is the only solution. One item that does help is to pick very light colors for the coach paint. Newmar likes to use dark colors on the exterior, particularly over the top of the coach. An IR heat gun will quickly show why this is a bad idea with surface temperature 50F to 60F higher on the skin in the darker painted areas.

 

[Rd1]

As of last week IRVC has not received any 2024 Newmar models at any of the dealers around the country.

Interesting.. did you mention earlier newmar is making 7 unit/wk? I thought they were upto 10-11 units/week in recent years? guess with some new 2022 still out there, maybe the reason..

But once you stop it really gets hot and the AC's cannot keep up at high temperatures and full sun without the dash AC running. It is much worse aft in the bedroom.

As soon as you stop, open the engine bay. it helps some. Better yet, another owner at irv2 some years back, had a pair of 12v car engine rad fans installed inside the engine bay and use it to pull the heat out of the engine bay. thats an option worth considering. wonder if it may even help while driving and keep the engine a bit cooler.. see pic.

Newmar likes to use dark colors on the exterior, particularly over the top of the coach.

Yes they do like darker colors on top?!? The benefit of a custom paint to eliminate the dark colors.