2024 Newmar New Aire

[turbopilot]

Yes, the 12 volt radiator fans help. There needs to be several.

Here is an IR image of my NA3343 right after shutdown after climbing the grade from St George, UT to Cedar City, UT. 110F at the bottom of the grade when I started the climb.

 

[Neal]

If you are headed to a replacement of the flooded/AGM lead acid batteries I would jump to a 48 volt system. I think the days of 12 volt battery systems are limited for Class A coaches. I would do 48 volt right now for the 2024 NA but it would mean getting rid of the new equipment and a bunch of rewiring.

Not on board with this personally, I have solar and hardly use it. In a New Aire I'm sure storage is a premium and for me I'd want all space I could get for my junk.

 

[turbopilot]

Not on board with this personally, I have solar and hardly use it. In a New Aire I'm sure storage is a premium and for me I'd want all space I could get for my junk.

Yes, those are the folks with the Rettroband right front tire failure. Sure would like to see the 4 corner weights on that NA3343. With full fuel and water but no cargo or anyone on board I only had 1,800 lbs left on my NA3343 to load the front axle with payload. They did have 500 lbs to work with by pulling the AGM batteries for the lithium but that solar array rack system looks heavy and that 48 volt system added additional weight over the 12 volt system.

Moving to a 48 volt system with dual inverters is going take addition space in the belly.

The time when solar really pays off is when you have to leave the coach for service (or other unplanned events) and it is not plugged in. You don't need a whole roof full of solar for this use case but you do need enough to keep the batteries topped, support critical systems and cellular based system monitoring via MyRosie. 400 watts of solar should be more than enough for the case. With 1,000 watts of solar on my NA3343 I could leave the coach outside without power with critical systems running plus the refrigerator on indefinitely during the Summer.

 

[Neal]

The time when solar really pays off is when you have to leave the coach for service (or other unplanned events) and it is not plugged in.

This is the initial reason for my solar install. I was in a storage facility (outdoor) with no power, etc. Solar worked well. Then as you mentioned when in service facilities, batteries were not at risk of going dead. So for that reason, yes. For boondocking I may have had 3-4 real opportunities but due to fall or winter timing with low solar declination it was tough to get good PV.

 

[turbopilot]

Interesting video posted a few days ago by Master Tech RV about a 48 volt hybrid lithium system installed in a New Aire.
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I called Master Tech for more details. Net system weight for this conversion (48 volt lithium batteries, 48 volt alternator, two Victron inverters and a lot of solar on the roof is around 1,500 lbs. The 35' New Aire has the same gross weight as the 33' and with the bigger engine and 2' plug the payload is borderline. Adding this package would really make the payload skinny.

Package price is between $70,000 and $90,000. Each 48 volt lithium battery alone is $16,000. Of interest the owners who installed this upgrade did not remove the Onan generator. With that much electricity available it is hard to believe a generator is really needed. The big 48 volt alternator on the engine should be all you need in addition to the very large solar array on the roof. Apparently this 48 volt alternator can handle the unbelievable big 48 volt lithium batteries that can be charged in 60 to 90 minutes of engine run time.

This upgrade retains the two 12 volt Lithionics batteries using a DC/DC converter to charge those batteries.

 

[Neal]

I have solar, I installed it as I had a need for it (and could again someday) - storage without power, and there is also the times when in service and parked in a lot it can help prevent house batteries from going dead. Beyond that, anyone looking at solar needs to think hard about the need. A modern class A with ultra-quiet gens I question that need. Even if parked in storage or service per above, if AGS is set (and not disabled by the service) the gen can automatically come on and maintain the batteries (notify them to be safe). Then of course for those that want to boondock, again, think hard about your needs as I bet in 75% of the solar installs out there, there is no need.

Take for example simply replacing FLA/AGM batteries with LifePO4 giving you a larger spectrum of usable battery and also faster recharge times such as from a GEN. This further negates the need for solar IMHO. Put the money towards a sufficient and correct LifePO4 install FIRST and go from there. Solar panels and solar controller are the cheap part of the setup. LifePO4 batteries first, other components secondary IMHO if I did it over again. I believe good batteries is all "most" here really need.

Edit: I'm curious of how fast a GEN can recharge a LifePO4 bank. Need to know the charge rate for LifePO4's and how long a GEN run would be required for recharge.

Edit2: Just my $.02

 

[Rich W.]

I have solar, I installed it as I had a need for it (and could again someday) - storage without power, and there is also the times when in service and parked in a lot it can help prevent house batteries from going dead. Beyond that, anyone looking at solar needs to think hard about the need. A modern class A with ultra-quiet gens I question that need. Even if parked in storage or service per above, if AGS is set (and not disabled by the service) the gen can automatically come on and maintain the batteries (notify them to be safe). Then of course for those that want to boondock, again, think hard about your needs as I bet in 75% of the solar installs out there, there is no need.

Take for example simply replacing FLA/AGM batteries with LifePO4 giving you a larger spectrum of usable battery and also faster recharge times such as from a GEN. This further negates the need for solar IMHO. Put the money towards a sufficient and correct LifePO4 install FIRST and go from there. Solar panels and solar controller are the cheap part of the setup. LifePO4 batteries first, other components secondary IMHO if I did it over again. I believe good batteries is all "most" here really need.

Edit: I'm curious of how fast a GEN can recharge a LifePO4 bank. Need to know the charge rate for LifePO4's and how long a GEN run would be required for recharge.

Edit2: Just my $.02

I watched about half the video and that system is pretty much what I suspected. Its more about everything you can do with an unlimited budget and no consideration of actual need, use of space, and cost/benefit. They created a system on a 35’ coach that can run four air conditioners and charge in 90 minutes. Great, but why?

When I first started messing with RV solar, Victron components, and Li-ion battery banks (modules salvaged from Nissan Leafs) it was a challenge - build a system that will run an air conditioner. Then it became a hobby, fun and interesting but expensive. But I did have a system that would run an AC all day and about 7 hours after sundown.

Finally after designing a system for my current coach, with around 25kwh of Li-ion battery bank (to run an air conditioner through the night until the sun came up) and a Victron 8kw 48v inverter (to run two ACs for a shorter period when desired), I kind of came to my senses and realized that yes, I could build it, and for about 1/4 the cost mentioned above, but no, I didn’t need it. So I finally put the brakes on the whole thing.

Right now I have 1575w of residential solar on the roof (5 LG 315w panels) in two banks, and while it wont run an air conditioner, it will always leave me with enough charge in the LA battery bank (weather permitting) to get me through the night and allow me to use a coffee maker and micro wave in the morning before the sun comes up.

With the way I camp that‘s good enough and as Neal mention the generator is relatively quiet - not much louder than the air conditioners, if at all. So I really don’t need a auxiliary system that will support them. It’s a nice feature but to me, not worth the complications and expense. I’ll replace my aging LA battery bank with either big AGMs or LiFePO4 when the time comes for a little more capacity and less maintenance and call it good.

 

[Rd1]

.......... Net system weight for this conversion (48 volt lithium batteries, 48 volt alternator, two Victron inverters and a lot of solar on the roof is around 1,500 lbs. ......

What about the fire supression system?

I hav'nt watched the video yet, but.. I have been to their shop and seen the installation first hand. Likewize, it seemed geared more to the 'unlimited budget', just to have it. Though, they seem to do a nice job. All wires color coded (for the 48V), the installation we looked at, had a fire suppression due to the extend of hi-voltage.

Now, if the factory designed this from production and within reason may be worth considering, given, their cost should be lower and given as much padding in the cost of a new coach, they can easily absorb this expense, if not most of it.

 

[turbopilot]

What about the fire supression system?

I hav'nt watched the video yet, but.. I have been to their shop and seen the installation first hand. Likewize, it seemed geared more to the 'unlimited budget', just to have it. Though, they seem to do a nice job. All wires color coded (for the 48V), the installation we looked at, had a fire suppression due to the extend of hi-voltage.

Now, if the factory designed this from production and within reason may be worth considering, given, their cost should be lower and given as much padding in the cost of a new coach, they can easily absorb this expense, if not most of it.

I agree with your observations. The entire system seems to be "overdone".

In their defense they said the project was carried out without any significant alteration of the stock 12 volt system in the coach. Everything added was in support of creating a "lithium battery generator system" for the coach while retaining the full 12 volt stock system and Onan generator.

I would approach the project differently. I would remove the 500 lb, 8.2 kw generator and replace it with a climate controlled lithium battery/inverter enclosure in the previous generator location. This would dramatically reduce the weight penalty. It would also free up additional belly storage.

With the very big 48 volt diesel engine generator those big lithium batteries can be recharged in a few hours of driving or idling. This time can be offset by the amount of solar on the roof or by finding a 50 amp ground power source. For further weight reduction I would eliminate the chassis batteries in favor of a single start emergency battery pack. Chassis batteries are not needed.

I think the high voltage lithium battery technology has finally evolved to the point we no longer need to carry around an Onan generator for backup. Depending on the size of the 48 volt lithium battery pack it is now feasible to run the air conditioners overnight then recharge in the morning using the chassis diesel engine. The only issue is the reliance on a single 48 volt alternator to power the charging process. A second smaller backup 48 volt alternator on the engine may make more sense for redundancy.

 

[Rd1]

I would approach the project differently. I would remove the 500 lb, 8.2 kw generator and replace it with a climate controlled lithium battery/inverter enclosure in the previous generator location. This would dramatically reduce the weight penalty. It would also free up additional belly storage.

this has relevance, be nice for the factory to offer the option, a genst with the original 12v system or have the LI Batt/Solar 48v system with no gen.

 

[Rich W.]

this has relevance, be nice for the factory to offer the option, a genst with the original 12v system or have the LI Batt/Solar 48v system with no gen.

one of the big companies had a demo model like that last year. Might have been Thor…..? Although I don’t know if it was 48v. When I was toying with this idea, I was going to use a Victron 48v 8kw inverter.

 

[MarkMaxPayne]

I caved and had the dealer's service department do the 3rd Lithionics battery "plug-in-play" upgrade as the coach is still under warranty and I wanted Newmar and their fingerprints on this.

With the battery came the Lithionics 3-way battery combiner connector (they ditched the Y cable connector as is best practice). Not being small they built a custom shelf for it above the batteries, but unfortunately infront of the bus bar & fuses panel on the back wall. They even moved the Victron battery shunt I had installed and placed it in a better location on that back panel vs behind the batteries. I now have 960Ah of lithium in the rig.

My only disappointment/fear is that my 2023 New Aire still uses an old school battery combiner solenoid for alternator changing, which isn't ideal. Fixing that may be my next project.

Best,
-Mark

 

[turbopilot]

I caved and had the dealer's service department do the 3rd Lithionics battery "plug-in-play" upgrade as the coach is still under warranty and I wanted Newmar and their fingerprints on this.

Post some images when you can of the 3rd battery install.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

There is a video on YouTube interviewing a Lithionics spokesman who have said they do not want to play to the DIY sector for "safety" reasons (obviously taking a shot at Victron). So I think we are stuck.

Not really a shot at Victron! Just a few short years ago the DIY battery builder had hoops to jump Just to get supplies to build their own batteries. Regulation due to it being a safety hazard, was in fact the legitimate reason it was so.

In that day 4ahrs was a typical cell size. Imagine 320 ahrs in Roman candle fashion show.

Same time period insurance would not cover a fire on a system, not installed by a licensed lithium installer.

 

[turbopilot]

Not really a shot at Victron! Just a few short years ago the DIY battery builder had hoops to jump Just to get supplies to build their own batteries. Regulation due to it being a safety hazard, was in fact the legitimate reason it was so.

In that day 4ahrs was a typical cell size. Imagine 320 ahrs in Roman candle fashion show.

Same time period insurance would not cover a fire on a system, not installed by a licensed lithium installer.

And, at the same time those same insurance companies were paying big dollars for all the RV fires cause by propane absorption refrigerators. Nothing rivals the risk associated with using propane in an RV.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Other "Banned for Life" iRV2 refugees may remember Mike Mas on that forum. He was one of the very early buyers of a New Aire in 2017 who brought lots of new technology ideas to the NA and posted regularly on iRV2 for a while. As I recall he got crosswise with the moderators on iRV2 and simply left the forum. Here is his web site.

A year ago Lithionics posted a video by Mike that is detailed and wide ranging. He is pushing for high voltages in RV's using these lithium based systems. I think he is on the right tract. I have Ford F-150 hybrid. It is running with two DC electrical systems: 12 volt and 280 volt. The 280 volt system runs the air conditioning and traction motor. Mike is arguing we need to step up to a 51 volt system for RV's. He makes some good points..

Here is the Lithionics YouTube Video.

Although it may be a really good move, to move to higher voltage systems. I don't think you understand the implications!

The Dividing line for low voltage systems is 48 volts. Above that and cost of installations would skyrocket due in whole! to the high voltage designation (N.E.C.). Yes you could work on it, but your insurance company may refuse to pay any losses if they got wind of it! And yes everything you post on the net is in an archive somewhere.

Top all this off with the fact any dealer or service center would likely have to be certified electrical contractors. Aren't you already paying enough for service?

 

[Kevin D Pem]

And, at the same time those same insurance companies were paying big dollars for all the RV fires cause by propane absorption refrigerators. Nothing rivals the risk associated with using propane in an RV.

I get it!!! You will get your wake up call, as more RVs have lithium installed!!!

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Success! I talked to T. J. at OffTheGridRV in Quartzite, AZ. They are an authorized Lithionics dealer. TJ has added the 3rd Lithionics battery to 3 "Luxury" Newmar coaches. Last one being a new Mountain Aire. T.J.'s current price is around $6,900 for the full install versus $10,000 as a factory option. The 3 port parallel combiner box is more expensive than I thought at $1,300 and is included in that price. Battery alone is $4,600. Apparently there are no SilverLeaf changes needed to support a 3rd battery. All configuration of the Lithionics BMS is done through the Bluetooth Lithionics app. The Lithionics BMS then echos information to SilverLeaf via the RV-Can network. With the parts, installation is fast and easy according to TJ. TJ needs about a month lead time for the some parts.

Everything here applies to any new "Luxury" Newmar model with Lithionics batteries. Here is the complete installation in the Mountain Aire.

View attachment 20752

Does that make us neighbors?

 

[MarkMaxPayne]

In that day 4ahrs was a typical cell size. Imagine 320 ahrs in Roman candle fashion show.

So all y'alls know Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are not the same as Lithium Ion batteries, right?

Best,
-Mark

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

So all y'alls know Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are not the same as Lithium Ion batteries, right?

Best,
-Mark

LFP batteries don’t have the same thermal run away characteristics of Lithium Ion, tons safer.
I know of a LFP battery that was damaged by an alarm installer who inadvertently drilled into a battery. Wasn’t immediately caught - until the battery meters indicated the batteries would drain much faster. It was caught in a checkup by Lithionics.
long time of damaged battery with drill through, but no thermal run away.
This isn’t just theory but real world experience.