CA strikes again with CARB ACT

[Hawkeye]

Everything on the Lightship L1 website calls it a trailer, what am I missing?

 

[turbopilot]

On another note, the unelected bureaucrats at CARB are also driving refineries out of Ca with excessive regulations and possibly (probably) driving up fuel costs even more. Its getting so bad that even some legislators on the same side of the aisle are (finally) getting concerned:

California enacts new climate rules — which could boost gas prices

Experts don’t know how much gas prices may rise from the new climate rules, which give incentives for low-carbon fuels. The board ordered an annual review.

calmatters.org

With 25% of new vehicles sales each year being EV's in California, no doubt more and more refineries will be closing. Just a basic issue of supply and demand. Of course this is exactly what CARB wants to happen. But now California deserts are covered with massive solar farms and wind farms that are now beginning to change the weather patterns locally. No free lunch except nuclear power.

 

[Voyageurs]

Everything on the Lightship L1 website calls it a trailer, what am I missing?

It’s still a trailer. But (depending on model) it’s self propelled. They couldn’t tell us much about the tech that determines how much propulsion there is (I would imagine that’s all top secret).

There will be a non propelled version as well. That will just be an extended stay self powered trailer with a ton of solar power.

We would be more interested in a 22 foot version and really it doesn’t need to be self propelled for us. But a small solar powered 20 to 22 foot adult trailer with all electric appliances Interests us. What’s key for us it needs to get into small sites off the beaten track. Forestry road and out of the way provincial park sites are some of our favourite spots and many are only small trailer friendly.

Until they build one will stay with our little EV RV combo. It has served us well.

 

[turbopilot]

Everything on the Lightship L1 website calls it a trailer, what am I missing?

Nothing. Until new nomenclature evolves, call it whatever you want. In practice the only similarity to a trailer is that directional control of the RV is provided by the lead vehicle by virtue of a trailer hitch with a ball. In motion the trailer automation is constantly adjusting the LightSpeed traction motors to make sure there is little or no tension on the ball connection, requiring no energy input to tow from the lead vehicle.

One other item I did not mention in the previous post about the energy balance of the LightShip in motion is that the LightShip traction motor when not supplying power to the LightShip wheels to propel it forward, turns into a generator to recapture energy when the LightShip is going downhill. So in motion the LightShip 80 kWh battery is taking energy from the hybrid lead vehicle inverter/traction motor, the LightShip 40 kW solar array and regenerative braking from the LightShip tractor motors. When level or climbing a hill the LightShip is using energy from the on board 80 kWh battery to drive the LightShip electric power train and maintain climate with the high voltage heat pump at the heart of the HVAC system.

 

[turbopilot]

There will be a non propelled version as well. That will just be an extended stay self powered trailer with a ton of solar power.

As a Lightship position holder I get all the advanced information. I have never seen any mention of a "non propelled" version of LightShip. I guess they could do one but so much of the trailer's functionality revolves around that very large 80 kWh battery and the regenerative capabilities of the traction motors, I don't see such a "trailer" having much appeal.

 

[Voyageurs]

As a Lightship position holder I get all the advanced information. I have never seen any mention of a "non propelled" version of LightShip. I guess they could do one but so much of the trailer's functionality revolves around that very large 80 kWh battery and the regenerative capabilities of the traction motors, I don't see such a "trailer" having much appeal.

Yah it was a question at the presentation from someone in the group. It is not a priority but they realize there would be a demand for something like that and will probably eventually build one.

Either way the existing unit is too big for us but I’m sure they will eventually address this as well. A lot of us there were pulling smaller trailers (as all of us had electric tow vehicles of one sort or another) so a bunch of people were asking.

 

[J&JD]

FWIW, this email from CARB was printed by a Bay Area newspaper:

CARB told SFGATE via email that “there is no motorhome ban.” A system of credits allows manufacturers that can’t meet the requirements to buy credits from those that do, giving them “the flexibility needed to sell as many internal combustion engines as is needed to meet market demands,” said spokesperson Lys Mendez. According to the board, manufacturers can also focus ZEV production on other vehicle types where that technology is more viable to meet the requirements.

Since Mercedes Benz owns Freightliner I wonder where they use and/or buy their credits?

 

[turbopilot]

FWIT, this email from CARB was printed by a Bay Area newspaper:

CARB told SFGATE via email that “there is no motorhome ban.” A system of credits allows manufacturers that can’t meet the requirements to buy credits from those that do, giving them “the flexibility needed to sell as many internal combustion engines as is needed to meet market demands,” said spokesperson Lys Mendez. According to the board, manufacturers can also focus ZEV production on other vehicle types where that technology is more viable to meet the requirements.

Since Mercedes Benz owns Freightliner I wonder where they use and/or buy their credits?

If the game had an indefinite timeline, it might work for some manufacturers. But remember CARB wants all ICE gone by 2036 in a progressive manner. What is the use in continuing with a progressively declining market for the next 10 years? No investment made has enough time to yield a decent return.

This is where CARB has gone off the deep end. There is no reason ICE and EV's cannot continue to exist indefinitely. With the right investment incentives government can pick the winner. The winner will be the most competitive technology net of the incentives that make it happen.

CARB does not have patience to allow the free market to work. They like the soup nazi approach to choice. No RV for you.

 

[rv4travlin]

FWIT, this email from CARB was printed by a Bay Area newspaper:

CARB told SFGATE via email that “there is no motorhome ban.” A system of credits allows manufacturers that can’t meet the requirements to buy credits from those that do, giving them “the flexibility needed to sell as many internal combustion engines as is needed to meet market demands,” said spokesperson Lys Mendez. According to the board, manufacturers can also focus ZEV production on other vehicle types where that technology is more viable to meet the requirements.

Since Mercedes Benz owns Freightliner I wonder where they use and/or buy their credits?

They buy their credits from Al Gore......

 

[redbaron]

The one item I am most interested in is the innovative HVAC system. This is something that should be designed into all RVs as this would dramatically reduce the need for electrical power. It is a far more efficient design and would be welcomed by many, including the diesel pusher crowd.

 

[Neal]

For Lightship discussion please use:

Lightship RV Owners Club

Lightship owners forum to discuss products and services including the L1 travel trailer and more.

rvforums.com

 

[turbopilot]

The one item I am most interested in is the innovative HVAC system. This is something that should be designed into all RVs as this would dramatically reduce the need for electrical power. It is a far more efficient design and would be welcomed by many, including the diesel pusher crowd.

Short video about the LightSpeed HVAC. It appears to be a scaled up version of those high voltage DC heat pump systems found in many EV's and hybrid vehicles. It runs exclusively off the high voltage lithium battery. Most of the coils are up front on the tongue.

 

[Neal]

post moved to the above forum. Thank you...

Reverted

 

[Neal]

https://www.cummins.com/engines/x15n-2024

 

[osuallen]

The one item I am most interested in is the innovative HVAC system. This is something that should be designed into all RVs as this would dramatically reduce the need for electrical power. It is a far more efficient design and would be welcomed by many, including the diesel pusher crowd.

Must be magic pixie dust. You cannot break the laws of physics and thermodynamics.

 

[Neal]

Pretty cool, I was able to move the HVAC post back, it's at post 132 above.

 

[redbaron]

Must be magic pixie dust. You cannot break the laws of physics and thermodynamics.

I recently replaced 30 tons of air conditioning in my home (6 units). My previous units where 14 Seer Trane units that where high tech at the time and very efficient. They had 3 stages of power to save energy.

The new units are 24 seer inverter heat pumps that are infinite number of stages as it scrolls up and down (like a CVVT). The interior fans are also infinite stage.

The end result is my power bill was cut drastically (45% in the summer months) comparing the July 2024 to the August 2024 bills. August was actually a hotter month, and I was home for more of the month, whereas I was gone all of July. During July the house was set to 76F, and August spent most of the month at 68F, with daily temperatures over 100F.

The point of all of this is that technology does exist to use less power and provide better cooling. The units on our RVs are about the oldest design possible and have no efficiency. Think about how Newmar has ducted the air. The intake and return are in the same place, separated by just a few inches.

If the return was placed on one side, and air was drawn across the room, it would provide better circulation, and require less run time and save energy.

The whole idea of CARB is to reduce the need for emissions, and by reducing the need for energy we can get there much faster.

I would like to see a bill that would make HVAC perform better and allow me to keep the coach 68F year round, no matter how many times the dog has to go out. And it would be an even better bill if the HVAC ratings specified that I could keep the blinds up to see the scenery.

 

[turbopilot]

The point of all of this is that technology does exist to use less power and provide better cooling. The units on our RVs are about the oldest design possible and have no efficiency. Think about how Newmar has ducted the air. The intake and return are in the same place, separated by just a few inches.

The technology is now widely available for high efficient RV HVAC systems. At it heart the LightShip HVAC system is basically the same found in most automotive EV's and hybrids. My Tesla uses such a system with a high voltage DC compressor. Same system is buried into the F-150 PowerBoost. The reason these EV's and hybrids need these very efficient HVAC systems is to keep the lithium batteries cool. Cabin heating and cooling is just along for the ride.

This technology is off the shelf but it requires big lithium batteries and/or traction motors to make them run. They will not easily operate as a belt driven device in the engine compartment. I have an App that watches many parameters on my F-150 hybrid. On hot days the high voltage compressor is running over 7,000 RPM drawing 5 or 6 amps @ 280 volts, off the lithium battery that is supported by the traction motor between the engine and transmission.

The point here is that high efficiency HVAC in an RV is going to require high voltage and that is where it all comes together in the concept of a LightShip RV.

Yes, a distant subject from a CARB ban but at the same time all this technology completely makes the CARB ban meaningless when applied to RV's of the future.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Must be magic pixie dust. You cannot break the laws of physics and thermodynamics.

Although I am sure it's just advertising! I am equally certain that observation (science), has modified how the universe is understood, and viewed! Those that do dig deeper can't be influenced by bull! Or not!!!

That said I don't see anything here that offers advanced technology! But some will buy into it, add this startup may have a market!

 

[turbopilot]

Must be magic pixie dust. You cannot break the laws of physics and thermodynamics.

The magic is efficiency. For an RV, the combination of high voltage batteries and high voltage, high speed heat pumps allows you to heat and cool an RV for extended periods of time using a central HVAC system. That means heating without propane and cooling much more efficient than those old fashioned, modified window air conditioners by Dometic sitting on the roof. No laws of physics are broken but they are significantly enhanced.

But the magic does not stop with heating and cooling. The very same HVAC system provides energy and battery conditioning to power the RV down the highway, just like a Tesla. And the traction motors in wheels return energy to the battery for future heating, cooling and vehicle movement.

This is not a vision of future dreams. Everything is now off the shelf ready to use but nobody has applied this technology to RV's. The future is now but for some venture capital investment.

From Google Gemini. Where ever they talk about heat you can substitute cool since they are heat pumps.

Heat pumps are becoming increasingly common in electric vehicles (EVs) because they offer significant efficiency advantages over traditional resistive heating systems. Here's a breakdown of why they're so efficient, particularly the high-voltage models:

How Heat Pumps Work

• Refrigerant Cycle: Heat pumps utilize a refrigerant cycle similar to your refrigerator, but in reverse. They extract heat from the outside air (even cold air) and transfer it into the vehicle cabin.
  
  
• Components: Key components include a compressor, condenser, expansion valve, and evaporator. These work together to move heat by changing the refrigerant's state between liquid and gas.
  

Efficiency Advantages of High-Voltage Heat Pumps in EVs

• Coefficient of Performance (COP): Heat pumps are measured by their COP, which is the ratio of heat output to energy input. High-voltage heat pumps in EVs can achieve COPs of 2-3 or even higher. This means for every 1 unit of electricity consumed, they can produce 2-3 units of heat.
• Reduced Battery Drain:Compared to resistive heaters that directly convert electricity to heat (COP of 1), heat pumps significantly reduce the energy drawn from the battery. This leads to:
  • Increased Range: Especially in cold climates, heat pumps can extend the driving range of EVs by up to 20-30%.
    
    
  • Reduced Charging Time: Less energy consumption translates to less frequent charging needs.
• Improved Performance in Cold Weather:High-voltage heat pumps are designed to operate efficiently even in colder temperatures, where traditional heat pumps might struggle. They often incorporate features like:
  • Vapor Injection: Enhances the efficiency of the refrigerant cycle in low temperatures.
    
    
  • Economizers: Optimize refrigerant flow for better performance.
    
• Integration with EV Systems: High-voltage heat pumps can be seamlessly integrated with the EV's high-voltage battery system, eliminating the need for inefficient DC-DC converters.
  
  
• Additional Benefits
  

• Cooling Capability: Heat pumps can also cool the cabin in the summer, acting as an air conditioner.
  
  
• Compact Size: Modern high-voltage heat pumps are designed to be compact, saving space and weight in the vehicle.

Challenges and Considerations

• Cost: High-voltage heat pumps can be more expensive than resistive heaters, although the cost is coming down.
• Complexity:They are more complex systems, potentially requiring more maintenance.
  
  
• Performance Variation: Efficiency can still be affected by extreme temperatures and humidity.
  

Overall, high-voltage heat pumps are a crucial technology for improving the efficiency and range of EVs, particularly in regions with cold climates. They offer a significant advantage over traditional heating methods and are becoming increasingly prevalent in modern EVs.