Question Industry quality?

[CosmicCamper]

Is it generally accepted that the build quality has declined for all manufacturers during the pademic?

 

[Rd1]

The pandemic may have had some impact. However, generally, all the mergers, acquisitions, buyout, etc.. along with the general mind set of the executives running the industry has been inflicted with the less quality, more units, more profit pandemic, so long as the baby boomer stampede continues.. such is the unfortunate side of this finance driven so called economy!!!

welcome to roaring 20s, V2.0.

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

I often wonder if the RV industry starting in the mid-west and mostly still operating from the mid-west presents a challenge.

As a born and raised mid-westerner, who works in the tech industry, I have seen the general thought differences in thought patterns between people who live in different areas.

The quote from Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain aptly captures the Midwest mindset, “when the end of the world comes, the best place to be is Cincinnati because everything happens there ten years later”. The Midwest likes stability and dislikes change. If it was good enough for Ma and Pa, it is good enough for me. (Remember I was born and raised in the Midwest so I am including myself in this thought process - not pointing fingers at others).

Does this stereotypical Midwest resistance to change impact the RV industry, with the RV industry being mostly focused in a small area of a Midwest state?

Where is the competition for a product with higher quality set of parts going to come from? Why does the automotive industry competition drive better quality in parts and finished product but not the RV industry?

How bad would a JD Powers initial quality report look if it were to add RV manufacturers to their list of auto manufacturers? We know they would be at the bottom, but being measured on the same scale, how bad would it make RV manufacturing look?

 

[Rosy]

I don't live in the Midwest but that doesn't sound bad to me. I'm not that sure about RVs but these days auto makers are falling all over each other to add "features" and complexity that reduce reliability in an effort to keep millennials and zoomers interested in buying vehicles. Or they're turbocharging everything to make it look better on the EPA's useless fuel economy tests so they can claim CAFE credits without improving real world fuel economy and again decreasing reliability.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Do you remember the Dodge MH? From an insiders point of view (not my own). The experiment was a bust because "reliability could not be achieved, leave it to companies like Winnebago ".

Just saying!

 

[Rosy]

Do you remember the Dodge MH? From an insiders point of view (not my own). The experiment was a bust because "reliability could not be achieved, leave it to companies like Winnebago ".

Just saying!

From Dodge? I'm shocked...

 

[Kevin D Pem]

From Dodge? I'm shocked...

Don't follow your statement.

 

[Rosy]

Don't follow your statement.

They haven't exactly been known for reliability since the late 80s or early 90s.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

They haven't exactly been known for reliability since the late 80s or early 90s.

Could be said about the big 4

 

[Rd1]

......
Does this stereotypical Midwest resistance to change impact the RV industry,....

I don't know if this is a midwest thing.. the buck stops with the executives. They set the pace.. There were some RVs with general quality, maybe not perfect, but some would be considered having measurable quality. Holiday Rmabler used to be relatively quality, again not perfect. Same with Country Coach, they were not perfect, but above the rest. Newmar founder, Mahlon, who actually worked for HR when it was family owned, also brought about inovations and relative quality when he founded Newmar in the mid 80s(?). The next generation Newmar ownership dropped the ball and eventually cashed in by selling to winnie. Of course, if you can appreciate the relationship between warranty work and the excess depreciation of an RV, then it will all add up!

..but, thats only one side of the coin, the other side R Us... Unless the owners/concumers are willing to raise these issues with the man in charge, not much will ever change..

 

[Kevin D Pem]

..but, thats only one side of the coin, the other side R Us... Unless the owners/concumers are willing to raise these issues with the man in charge, not much will ever change...

So what you are saying is when we quit buying junk junk will go away!

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Just a point! When I decided to only buy products that were designed to last, that didn't change what I found on the shelves at the time store, only what I considered.

 

[CosmicCamper]

I wonder if there are customer satisfaction numbers available for 2020 on?

 

[tdkkart]

Is it generally accepted that the build quality has declined for all manufacturers during the pademic?

Build quality, or overall cheapening of the design and materials?? There's a difference. You can do a good job of folding the pizza box as designed, or you can do a bad job of folding the same design box. The problem comes in when you take away the corrugated cardboard and try to build the same box with notebook paper. No matter how good you are at folding it, it ain't gonna work. It might LOOK the same, but it's still garbage.

* I use "pizza box" mainly due to the the crap that I have seen just in the last few weeks at local RV shows, most of which seem to be built much like a pizza box, in both materials and design. Some of them are being folded better than others, but their all the same crap. I haven't really been inside an RV for MANY years, but SWMBO and I have been discussing retirement RVing lately so we've been out looking around. I'm beginning to seriously question whether or not we even want to go down this road,

 

[CosmicCamper]

Build quality, or overall cheapening of the design and materials?? There's a difference. You can do a good job of folding the pizza box as designed, or you can do a bad job of folding the same design box. The problem comes in when you take away the corrugated cardboard and try to build the same box with notebook paper. No matter how good you are at folding it, it ain't gonna work. It might LOOK the same, but it's still garbage.

* I use "pizza box" mainly due to the the crap that I have seen just in the last few weeks at local RV shows, most of which seem to be built much like a pizza box, in both materials and design. Some of them are being folded better than others, but their all the same crap. I haven't really been inside an RV for MANY years, but SWMBO and I have been discussing retirement RVing lately so we've been out looking around. I'm beginning to seriously question whether or not we even want to go down this road,

This is the exact situation my wife and I are in. We want to buy a class A and full time travel the country. My concern would be getting a piece of crap that would leaves constantly working on little fixes, putting it in a shop, or broken down. I really like the Thor Outlaw class A toy hauler but have heard some horror stories about Thors quality.

 

[TheLooks]

That mid West attitude you mention is just every corner of this country with common hardworking people, living detached from large populations. I come from really rural Maine, and the people hung on to quality until it was no longer available.

 

[Knobs]

...
Where is the competition for a product with higher quality set of parts going to come from? Why does the automotive industry competition drive better quality in parts and finished product but not the RV industry?
...

In the 50s and 60s, American auto manufacturers were quite comfortable competing on style and pizzazz. They were not competing on quality, so none of them cared much about quality.

Imports were either very expensive luxury cars, or cheap econoboxes. Neither posed any real threat to the big 3.

Then, in the 70s the Toyota/Datsun (Nissan)/Honda "invasion" showed that high quality, competitively priced, family cars were possible. This DID pose a real threat. Even so, it took years of declining market share for Detroit to respond with high quality cars of their own.

The RV industry is like the US big 3 in the 50's and 60's. They are all competing in the features and specs market and none really care about quality. The customer can't really make quality an issue, either, because there is no real alternative. Buy our crap or go home.

Were will the Toyota/Datsun (Nissan)/Honda of the RV industry come from? Until some manufacturer demonstrates how to build high quality yet competitively priced RVs, nothing will change.

 

[sanda]

They haven't exactly been known for reliability since the late 80s or early 90s.

I think vehicle quality is better than ever. In my early days of the 60's you were lucky to get 100,000 miles without major repairs. Points and plugs replaced every 30k. Carbs rebuilt every 40k. Common rattles and poor fit of body and interior panels. Tire quality was very bad.
We may not be able to work on our vehicles anymore because of their complexity but they don't need repairs near as often.
It's too bad the rv industry didn't follow suit.

 

[Joe Hogan]

Even at the highest end of RVs, there are issues with new RVs. Even Newell level RVs have factory warranty work.
In my opinion much of what you are paying for in a new RV is Factory Service Relationship, after the sale service. Why we pay for FPU (Factory Pick Up) is to establish and foster this Factory Service relationship.
This also goes for Franchised dealers. High quality Dealerships is a much harder find in my opinion in the RV industry. When it comes to lower end RVs, the saying "Turn and Burn" comes to mind. Think Camping World group of companies focus pushing for high sales volume.

If you have found a factory/dealership relationship you believe offers good timely service, cherish the relationship.

Quality Issues remain in the manufacturing environment with the quantity of available skilled workers decline. People that can and desire to hand build products are becoming a rare breed. When I went to school, many years ago, trade schools were an available option for many that wanted to work with their hands. Not many trade schools left. Employee/Company loyalty is also rare.

We purchased a new Newmar with FPU (factory pick up). Many initial issues were caught during the delivery ( the stuff Dealerships are paid by the factory to find and fix during Delivery Prep).
After the first year of travel, other issues were identified, many of these issues did not exist at FPU but were obvious after the initial "shake down" period. I view the first year of travel as a good Shake Down period. The House portion of the RV moves around a lot during travel, and problems arise as things are used and settle in.
All of our issues were fixed under warranty at the next Factory Service Center visit. The Factory Tech we had performing our service also identified items I was not aware of and fixed them under warranty (Relationship).

We travel a great distance to the factory for service visits. Can be a pain but we just work it into the travel schedule. We meet interesting people during our time at Camp Newmar.

Additionally we have had many very poor dealership experiences. We have found that you need to be very explicate with the work order process and fully understand the work to be performed. And what work will not be performed.
Verify that the Service Writer understands and communicates your expectations.
Understand the shops schedule and promised timeline. We've seen RV languish for months waiting for normal warranty work at dealerships. This warranty work was not a priority for those dealerships.
If you have ever worked in a car dealership, many times the low time, new mechanics get "stuck" with the warranty work because it doesn't pay full rate. Good experience for the novice Tech.

An aside: Spent the majority of my career financing RVs, Marine and Powersports Dealerships. Customer Service Quality varies widely in my experience. Some Dealers focus on new sales to pay the rent, others on service, some others on Customer Relationship. With some observation you can identify the dealership's focus.

Also, selling and servicing RVs is a very hard, seasonal and cyclical business. Managing a service facility and staffing is difficult between the boom and bust cycles.
Additionally with the current parts logistics issues, the down side of JIT inventory has become very evident. If a dealership does not plan to budget in a sizable inventory of parts, wait times can get out of hand in the current environment.

Brain Dump over

 

[Bob K4TAX]

Too often we as buyers are found to make decisions based on (a) price and (b) features and (c) glitz and glamor. One can look at these three as corners of a triangle. The sides can be stretched or shortened but still, it remains a triangle. I think we can all agree, the COVID issue has impacted the world economy. We are now seeing the delayed results of that event. In 10 years, if anyone is still left, it should be better.

Bob