Question Industry quality?

[TheLooks]

That mid West attitude you mention is just every corner of this country with common hardworking people, living detached from large populations. I come from really rural Maine, and the people hung on to quality until it was no longer available.

 

[Knobs]

...
Where is the competition for a product with higher quality set of parts going to come from? Why does the automotive industry competition drive better quality in parts and finished product but not the RV industry?
...

In the 50s and 60s, American auto manufacturers were quite comfortable competing on style and pizzazz. They were not competing on quality, so none of them cared much about quality.

Imports were either very expensive luxury cars, or cheap econoboxes. Neither posed any real threat to the big 3.

Then, in the 70s the Toyota/Datsun (Nissan)/Honda "invasion" showed that high quality, competitively priced, family cars were possible. This DID pose a real threat. Even so, it took years of declining market share for Detroit to respond with high quality cars of their own.

The RV industry is like the US big 3 in the 50's and 60's. They are all competing in the features and specs market and none really care about quality. The customer can't really make quality an issue, either, because there is no real alternative. Buy our crap or go home.

Were will the Toyota/Datsun (Nissan)/Honda of the RV industry come from? Until some manufacturer demonstrates how to build high quality yet competitively priced RVs, nothing will change.

 

[sanda]

They haven't exactly been known for reliability since the late 80s or early 90s.

I think vehicle quality is better than ever. In my early days of the 60's you were lucky to get 100,000 miles without major repairs. Points and plugs replaced every 30k. Carbs rebuilt every 40k. Common rattles and poor fit of body and interior panels. Tire quality was very bad.
We may not be able to work on our vehicles anymore because of their complexity but they don't need repairs near as often.
It's too bad the rv industry didn't follow suit.

 

[Joe Dutchstar]

Even at the highest end of RVs, there are issues with new RVs. Even Newell level RVs have factory warranty work.
In my opinion much of what you are paying for in a new RV is Factory Service Relationship, after the sale service. Why we pay for FPU (Factory Pick Up) is to establish and foster this Factory Service relationship.
This also goes for Franchised dealers. High quality Dealerships is a much harder find in my opinion in the RV industry. When it comes to lower end RVs, the saying "Turn and Burn" comes to mind. Think Camping World group of companies focus pushing for high sales volume.

If you have found a factory/dealership relationship you believe offers good timely service, cherish the relationship.

Quality Issues remain in the manufacturing environment with the quantity of available skilled workers decline. People that can and desire to hand build products are becoming a rare breed. When I went to school, many years ago, trade schools were an available option for many that wanted to work with their hands. Not many trade schools left. Employee/Company loyalty is also rare.

We purchased a new Newmar with FPU (factory pick up). Many initial issues were caught during the delivery ( the stuff Dealerships are paid by the factory to find and fix during Delivery Prep).
After the first year of travel, other issues were identified, many of these issues did not exist at FPU but were obvious after the initial "shake down" period. I view the first year of travel as a good Shake Down period. The House portion of the RV moves around a lot during travel, and problems arise as things are used and settle in.
All of our issues were fixed under warranty at the next Factory Service Center visit. The Factory Tech we had performing our service also identified items I was not aware of and fixed them under warranty (Relationship).

We travel a great distance to the factory for service visits. Can be a pain but we just work it into the travel schedule. We meet interesting people during our time at Camp Newmar.

Additionally we have had many very poor dealership experiences. We have found that you need to be very explicate with the work order process and fully understand the work to be performed. And what work will not be performed.
Verify that the Service Writer understands and communicates your expectations.
Understand the shops schedule and promised timeline. We've seen RV languish for months waiting for normal warranty work at dealerships. This warranty work was not a priority for those dealerships.
If you have ever worked in a car dealership, many times the low time, new mechanics get "stuck" with the warranty work because it doesn't pay full rate. Good experience for the novice Tech.

An aside: Spent the majority of my career financing RVs, Marine and Powersports Dealerships. Customer Service Quality varies widely in my experience. Some Dealers focus on new sales to pay the rent, others on service, some others on Customer Relationship. With some observation you can identify the dealership's focus.

Also, selling and servicing RVs is a very hard, seasonal and cyclical business. Managing a service facility and staffing is difficult between the boom and bust cycles.
Additionally with the current parts logistics issues, the down side of JIT inventory has become very evident. If a dealership does not plan to budget in a sizable inventory of parts, wait times can get out of hand in the current environment.

Brain Dump over

 

[Bob K4TAX]

Too often we as buyers are found to make decisions based on (a) price and (b) features and (c) glitz and glamor. One can look at these three as corners of a triangle. The sides can be stretched or shortened but still, it remains a triangle. I think we can all agree, the COVID issue has impacted the world economy. We are now seeing the delayed results of that event. In 10 years, if anyone is still left, it should be better.

Bob

 

[Rosy]

I think vehicle quality is better than ever. In my early days of the 60's you were lucky to get 100,000 miles without major repairs. Points and plugs replaced every 30k. Carbs rebuilt every 40k. Common rattles and poor fit of body and interior panels. Tire quality was very bad.
We may not be able to work on our vehicles anymore because of their complexity but they don't need repairs near as often.
It's too bad the rv industry didn't follow suit.

Maybe. Maybe not. My grandfather's 1985 Dodge Ram ran for 30 years without needing major powertrain repairs. No other Dodge in our family since then has gone even half that long and I wouldn't have confidence that a new one would either.

 

[Knobs]

Too often we as buyers are found to make decisions based on (a) price and (b) features and (c) glitz and glamor. One can look at these three as corners of a triangle. The sides can be stretched or shortened but still, it remains a triangle. I think we can all agree, the COVID issue has impacted the world economy. We are now seeing the delayed results of that event. In 10 years, if anyone is still left, it should be better.

Bob

A more pessimistic view would be: Now that the RV industry has seen the level of "quality" they can get away with, what is going to motivate the industry as a whole to improve?

The RV industry is seeing the individual small company in the rear view. The large number of brands is an illusion.
99% of the brands are owned by large corporations such as Thor, Forest River, and Winnebago.

("99%" is obviously hyperbole to make the point.)

 

[Knobs]

99% of the brands are owned by large corporations such as Thor, Forest River, and Winnebago.

(some brands listed below are in related markets - such as buses or boats - rather than RVs per se)

Thor:

• Airstream
• Heartland RV
• Hymer
• Dutchmen
• Jayco
• Starcraft (owned by Jayco before they purchased Jayco)
• Keystone RV
• Thor Motor Coach (a consolidation of Four Winds International & Damon Motor Coach)
• Crossroads RV
• K-Z
• Redwood RV (a subsidiary of Crossroads RV)
• Postle Aluminum (An aluminum manufacturer)
• Tiffin (most recently purchased in 2020)

Winnebago:

• Winnebago
• Grand Design RV
• Chris-Craft
• Newmar

Forest River:

• Coachmen RV
• Dynamax Corporation
• East To West travel trailers
• Forest River RV
• Palomino
• Prime Time Manufacturing
• Shasta RV
• US Cargo
• Elkhart Coach
• Berkshire Coach
• Champion Bus
• El Dorado Motor Corp.

REV Group:

• American Coach
• Fleetwood Enterprises
• Monaco Coach
• Holiday Rambler
• Renegade RV
• Midwest Automotive Designs
• Lance Camper

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Ok, this might be the wrong place for this but what's not garbage in the 22-25' TT range? I went to camping world with the family on Sunday and we were blessed there was no salesman available so we just ran around for 2 hours looking at everything. Starting on the used lot, most weren't more than 2 years old and predominantly had most of the new look, feel & smell intact. The new lot was much the same but looking past all the fancy stuff, many struck me as not really built that well. I'd rather buy used from a private seller disclosing known problems that I can fix correctly (well within my wheelhouse) vs. new at a significantly higher price with hidden problems built in.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Maybe. Maybe not. My grandfather's 1985 Dodge Ram ran for 30 years without needing major powertrain repairs. No other Dodge in our family since then has gone even half that long and I wouldn't have confidence that a new one would either.

My grandfather's Plymouth 60' model was retired in the 80's. The point to be made however was it was retired with less than 90 grand on it.
My 16 RAM has 105 grand on it. Somehow years mean little unless we talk people. Oh and I expect it will go 300 grand and I tow.

 

[Neemer]

As has been demonstrated on this board over the past few years, quality is in the eye of the beholder. I may be satisfied with a coach that another may think is seriously lacking.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

Quality can be measured too, by a number of different metrics. I'm very interested if any such organizations exist specifically revolving around RV/TT manufacturers and keep tabs on some metric, be it warranty, quantifiable customer satisfaction or ??

 

[TheLooks]

Sadly no there isn't. Forums full of irate or satisfied owners is about it. Mostly, they use the same exact appliances. These are unchanged for the most part for many years. There are a few new technologies showing up. So quality is generally about build style and execution. This is where almost all complaints come from. The workers are pushing for speed and execution is sacrificed for quota. You can't blame the workers when they are paid for 8 hours after 4 if they have met the days quota, then go next door and do it again for a double payday in 8 hours. It incentivizes "Send it" as we learned.

 

[A-Texan]

Is it generally accepted that the build quality has declined for all manufacturers during the pademic?

I have only purchased two travel trailers new (my first one was used), and from that small scope of an experience I can say the cheaper travel trailer I purchased in 2008 was built with greater quality than the more expensive one I bought in 2021. The first was a 17ft trailer, no frills that slept 5 with a queen bed which turned into a dinette and two bunk beds. Other than doing a little caulking here and there it was a great trailer and we did a lot of trips in it without any issues for several years all accross the US. In 2021 I bought a new trailer which looked superior with more amenities, it was 21ft rather than 17ft, slept the same, but just looked a lot nicer, had more cabinet space and was still a lite series easy to pull, but I have had to fix a lot of stuff on it, for example: the door wouldn't open after driving in the sun because it was fitted too tightly (had to remove the striker, grind it down so it would not catch the latch once the metal expanded and reinstall), the GFCI outlet quit working on the first trip and started blinking red (dealer reaplaced it under warranty), one of the wheel wells was missing sealer for about 14 inches and you could see a 1 inch gap where water could just come up into the travel trailer if you went through a puddle, cabinets appeared to be caulked with mud, that you would use for sheetrock, and not only did it look horrible, but pieces were falling off while driving down the road, door trim for the bathroom fell off after the first few trips and it wasn't cut to proper length, ceiling trim fell off after a few more, the refrigerator door fell off when I openend a few trips ago, the sewage pipe was held by a thin metal strap which broke and dropped the pipe down about an inch off the ground during the first trip as well, the sealer on the roof was cracked and large chunks were missing in several areas which I had to reseal, the sheet metal screws at the base of all the siding outside backed out (lost some of them), so I added silicone and reinstalled them to make sure they didn't back out again, and I will stop there, but there is more. So between the two trailers I have purchased, there was a vast difference in build quality when considering my 2008 trailer versus my 2022 model trailer, although they were purchased from the same RV dealer (the components in the new travel trailer are fantastic, but the quality of how they built and installed them in the trailer is lacking). I am happy with the new trailer, but being new I didn't expect to put in the amount of work I have had to do, its great now that all the bugs are worked out though.

 

[Bob K4TAX]

As they say about vehicle maintenance........pay me now or pay me later. I was taught to be very meticulous with regard to all maintenance. I follow the book and either do it myself or have it done. Today's vehicles are too much of an investment to ignore maintenance. Expect to drive one for 10 to 15 years and it can be totally trouble-free if properly maintained.

Bob