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NIRVC Manufacturers Defects Per Unit

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I think, excuse my lack of expertice in this specific field, that it is noble what Brett is attempting here. The reality is this is only one dealership. Granted they have multiple locations, but in the overall scheme of things one can only get a very crude approximation. There are many confounding factors, e.g. small sample size, how rigorous the inspection is at pick up time, lack of road time to discover things not apparent sitting in a lot ir garage, etc. Many things only show up with use (slide issues, loose body and other parts, perhaps electrical issues, etc., how many issues are addressed by the owner and not even shared with the dealer).

I have owned three RV’s - a Prime Time trailer, a Forest River Forester, and a Newmar Baystar. I did not have the trailer long enough to include it in the data. Initially it had the least issues of all of them. The Forester and BayStar had the same number if issues in the first several years. The FR had to go back to the factory for major work. Fortunately, it took several visits to the Service center to get everything taken care of on the BayStar, and even now I hesitate to skip a yearly visit, as the list begins several months after my return home - to be fair, not all original defects.

On inspection, the Newmar is of much higher quality than the Forester. That goes without saying, but I am almost certain that this difference would not be picked up on the cursory analysis that we are discussing. The data is nice, but not sufficient to draw any comparative conclusions, IMHO.

Again, I applaud Brett for trying to get a handle on this,and one hasto start somewhere. However in any data set one has to take into account all of the things not represent in said dat set, before evaluating the usefulness and any conclusions drawn from such data. This is like the first brush stroke on what may turn out to be a beautiful painting - or - maybe not. Time will tell.
 
AbdRahim you are spot on.. too many variables and not enough clarity on the data.. we are on the same page..
 
Very Interesting report. And look who is number one with the least defects for Class A Motor homes.

HH
 
you noticed that too lol... misinformation and disinformation analysis with data visualization is the easiest way to summarize it ..

 
Good evening.

I will apologize for the length of this post before I even start writing it. There is simply no short concise way to explain what NIRVC is trying to share with the public.

Sharing our Defects Per Unit (DPU) with the public on our website is really the first of three reports we generate and have tracked internally for many years. In ascending order of importance to me as a fulltimer of 11 years and coach owner of 39 years are:

1. Defects Per Unit (DPUs). [Quality]

2. Warranty Ratings for chassis, motorhome factory warranty, and the biggest of all to me… extended service plans(ESP). [Customer Service]

3. Our historical database (12,000+) of used coaches NIRVC has sold, and what the NADA Book Value was on the day of sale. The spread between the lowest at -20+% below Book to 28% above book has the single largest impact on the cost of ownership. [Value]

DPUs are a glimpse at the relative quality, or quality control, between manufacturers. Our warranty ratings are a glimpse of how good or bad a manufacturer’s warranty or ESP is with their customer service after the sale. And yes, DPUs and factory warranty ratings are inexplicably connected to each other. And, our discounts or premiums to Book in the used market are a glimpse at relative value between manufacturers. Call it what you will, “bang for the buck” or cost of ownership. These premiums or discounts to Book are inextricably tied to how well a manufacturer keeps supply and demand in check. Does a manufacturer habitually overbuild, or do they keep demand high for their products? When a manufacturer “stuffs the channel,” invariably the manufacturer will offer their dealers “factory assistance” in order to move their inventory off the dealer’s lots, and to free up the dealer’s flooring lines in order for the dealer to order more coaches, in order for the manufacturer to keep their lines running. Unfortunately, when a manufacturer offers $50,000 in factory assistance to a dealer they have effectively reduced the value of every one of their coaches on the road by $50,000.

Bottom line, I believe the bright light of transparency in these three areas will allow coach buyers to make a more informed buying decision as it relates to quality, customer service of warranties, and cost of ownership. Armed with this information coach buyers can vote with their wallets and drive changes in behavior.

Now, with that bit of background behind us I will address your questions on DPUs.

1. What units are being counted in our DPUs?

Only new units are being considered in our DPU report. Only the defects we find during our PDI, plus anything discovered during the walkthrough are being counted. Bottom line, all defects from when the unit arrives on our lot up to, and including delivery, are being counted. No defects after delivery are being counted as they will show up in our warranty ratings report. All manufacturers should be able to reconcile our DPUs right back to the warranty claims they have paid.

FWIW, we use the same PDI checklist across all our locations for the chassis, house, and paint. And, all units are inspected by the same people in each location.

Yes, we do find defects for which a manufacturer will not authorize repair. Those un-repaired defects are not being counted in our DPU report, but are being counted in our warranty ratings report. All defects are ultimately accounted for, and there is “no free lunch” for manufacturers on defects.

2. How are minor, medium, and major defects being defined?

Any single repair taking 0.5 hours or less to repair is considered a minor defect. Any single repair between 0.51 and 1.99 hours to repair is being considered a medium defect. And, any single defect requiring over 2.0 hours to repair is being counted as a major defect, and a defect we believe should have been caught by the factory before shipping the unit to us. FWIW, and by coincidence, our breakdown between minor, medium, and major defects resembles the typical bell curve with 20% of the defects being minor defects, 70% being medium defects, and 10% being major defects.

3. How many units are being counted, and why aren’t we disclosing the unit counts?

First, there is a limit to how much I’m willing to disclose to my competition. Second, the DPUs are a running average by quarter per manufacturer, so we didn’t see the relevance. Having said that, we felt it only fair to have a minimum sample size each quarter, and that minimum is 5 units, or 20 units per year, per class, per manufacturer. For clarity, our DPUs are not weighted. We didn’t want to “put our thumb on the scales,” because we wanted our manufacturers to be able to reconcile our defects to their warranty claims.

4. Are the “Hours to Cure” true clocked hours of labor?

The “Hours to Cure” are the actual hours the manufacturer paid to repair the defect. Again, the manufacturer can reconcile our reporting back to their warranty claims paid. Any hours not authorized, or denied, will show up in our warranty ratings.

5. What time period is being reported for Tiffin?

NIRVC signed its dealer agreement with Tiffin in June of 2023, however we didn’t receive any units until November of 2023. We had not received our minimum 5 units from Tiffin by December 31, 2023, so our Tiffin reporting began the first quarter of 2024 when we had received a great number of Tiffins. There was a point during the spring we had more Tiffins on our lot than any other brand we represent, but that was merely due to the fact that no one knew we were a Tiffin dealer yet. Thankfully, that has now remedied itself, but my point here is, we have PDI’d one whale of a lot of Tiffins since becoming a Tiffin dealer.

6. How often will we update the DPUs on our website?

While we PDI units every day and track their defects in realtime on our internal dashboards, we will only push the data to our website on a quarterly basis. Each quarterly update is calculated with trailing twelve months of defects.

Lastly, I would be remiss if I didn’t give credit where credit is due. After we received our first Tiffin units last November, performed our PDIs, and filed our first warranty claims, I received a call from Leigh Tiffin. Leigh wanted to know if I would be willing to send one of our PDI teams to Red Bay to randomly perform a PDI on any unit of our choosing in front of his production team. I had never received such a request before, and we have been sharing our DPU reports with manufacturers since June of 2020. Naturally, I jumped at the opportunity and sent our PDI team out of Nashville to Red Bay. They were there inspecting and answering questions from Leigh’s team for a full day. From my vantage point Leigh takes defects very seriously, and it has certainly proven to be the case in the numbers we collect and track.

This post is plenty long already, so I’ll sign off here. For those who have managed to stay awake all the way to the end… thank you!

Onward,
Brett
I thought this might help some to understand what he is trying to do.
Bill
 
Bill,
thanks for sharing that post, but i had already read it and still dont agree with the method of data analysis in this case. the data is misleading at best and doesn't really show anything of value that could be used in a decision making process. I will leave it at that..
 
All data is imperfect, but even imperfect data is better than nothing and certainly better than random personal anecdotes on the internet. I'm glad NIRVC is collecting and publishing this. I also suspect they have a lot more data but aren't sharing it publicly for competitive reasons and to not piss off the manufacturers. I'd love to see data for the first year or two of ownership but that's got to be much harder to collect and trust. That kind of warranty data would almost have to come from the manufacturers themselves which I doubt they'd publish. As an engineer I had to make decisions based on the data I had, not the data I wish I had.
 
I think compiling that kind of data that NIRVC is doing is very proactive. Not only for us as customers, but for them as a major RV seller. And I 'll tell you what, if and when I am looking at another new coach I will definitely give NIRVC a shot.

I think we really need and appreciate people like Brett and Leigh Tiffin that are involved and caring enough about their business to keep us, the general public informed.

I had or have extensive dealings with two RV Sales companies. One was recently bought out and their service prices sky rocketed. The other is just to far away and always higher on price.

Brett thank you very much for the explanation of your DPU report.

HH
 
Glad NIRVC is sharing this data. Then add in 1st year warranty repairs... I know that my first year of ownership I fixed my own issues at a 5:1 to 6:1 ratio to what I went to the dealer to resolve under warranty. I went to the dealer for either things I couldn't resolve myself, that I absolutely wanted documented, or the $ was high enough to put it back on Newmar even after factoring in spending the fuel on it. I guess my point is that the NIRVC numbers are only part of the quality story and I suspect the actual numbers are higher.

Transparency is a good thing.

Best,
-Mark
 
I think its worth mentioning that even $2M coaches have issues that have to be corrected.. we have friends with a 2024 Newell and they have had more issues with it than we have with our Newmar DutchStar... bottom line to me is that most coaches will have problems, but how they are taken care of is what matters most... as Mark stated, some of us like to do our own repairs and I am one of them... not worth it to bring a coach into a shop to sit for weeks for something that is minor and doesn't impact a trip... That being said, i always notify Newmar of any issue i find so they can have the information on what i found and how i corrected it.
 
StewartW & Others

Saw this in another forum, and after the issues you had mentioned in NEWMAR and other products, I thought you might be interested in reading this information from Brett Davis and NIRVC:

Asking a Dealership who itself has to account for its current and past warranty procedures and assuming they will be accurate is a little like asking the Wolves to guard the hen house in my opinion .
I have seen inspectors find more issues after NIRVC has done a PDI . Of course they then banned them . Then when I put it up on another site they had it removed .
Infact I have a copy of the letter threatening the lawsuit . It is important for NIRVC to do this so they can pretend to be the know it alls . Imagine if CARFAX was a product of a dealership . I have no idea why a manufacturer would allow this unless they had a relationship above the norm or am interest in it . The old magazine consumer reports for an example as does JDPowers as being very separate.
Let’s face it the quality is not great coming from the factories . It truly becomes a customer adventure to make certain the coach they buy is worthy of the money spent . More so , that they won’t be living with knowing they are waiting for parts.
I have reached out to a few factories and told them I would be willing to consult on process and quality control as well as distribution and sales . No takers yet . Soon I imagine
 
Glad NIRVC is sharing this data. Then add in 1st year warranty repairs... I know that my first year of ownership I fixed my own issues at a 5:1 to 6:1 ratio to what I went to the dealer to resolve under warranty. I went to the dealer for either things I couldn't resolve myself, that I absolutely wanted documented, or the $ was high enough to put it back on Newmar even after factoring in spending the fuel on it. I guess my point is that the NIRVC numbers are only part of the quality story and I suspect the actual numbers are higher.

Transparency is a good thing.

Best,
-Mark
Please explain how you think NIRVC is being transparent ? They sell , service and store for profit . The data they provide is opinion and unsubstantiated by a third party . I too can call myself an expert and publish on a website . Does that make me an expert .
 
There are three types of lies:
Lies
Damn Lies
Statistics
 
Please explain how you think NIRVC is being transparent ? They sell , service and store for profit . The data they provide is opinion and unsubstantiated by a third party . I too can call myself an expert and publish on a website . Does that make me an expert .
 

Let’s talk about that video . It was a calculated response to an inspection of a coach by Blue Ox . Pierre and his wife did a YouTube video about the inspection as they do many . They never even mentioned NIRVC but , Brett and Angie told their GMs that from that point they were banned . They then sent to Blue Ox a very threatening letter and follwed with a cease directive . Told them to get an attorney ready . In my opinion it was beyond vulgar actions. I spoke up about these actions amongst others as was terminated. So I know first hand . They also discussed with a couple of the manufactures and I heard this coat Blue Ox some possible opportunities .
I can say this when Blue Ox showed up the unit was filthy and they were told it was PDI . The coach was not hooked to water but had enough in tanks to run . They ask the buyer to ask the dealership to have hooked up . It is in their contract . Inspectors do not drive the coaches.
In the video you share you can see Brett does not share the two lists. If he did you would see there are differences. Instead of using it as a learning tool Brett would rather attack the inspection . Brett clearly says that New Coaches don’t need inspections because of PDI and warranties cover .

Who caught the age of the tires ? When were they ordered ? Just one item on the lists . The customer is getting new tires now .

Brett explains why the coach is filthy inside . Maybe he keeps his coach that way , but last time I had my home inspected I made sure it was clean . Same with every vehicle I have sold . It is common sense . Frankly I am not sure why anyone would want to inspect without . I have 30 years experience in the dealership world and we always pull all the plastic and covers so we can see with a PDI .

NIRVC has a very good strategy of survival in this industry . They do the storage inside and it gives a lot of benefits to the guests , but I think it stops at that point. They again want to list and publish with no oversight . I guess if you talk smooth like on the video you put up that it is fact . I don’t think he does 1000s of new coaches a year . He may want to fact check himself .

He told all GMs that they need to have an approved list of people that are good to NIRVC and only those inspectors would be allowed . Now I see he has some push back, but all should know that was his motivation .

I still do not know what Blue Ox did wrong , but clearly this video was produced because of it. They accuse Blue Ox of wrong doing and yet is it okay they call manufactures and try to scare a small business who has a good reputation because they made a video ?
 

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