Smart RV Capability

[smoorehome]

@flyboy013 I would be interested in testing your technology.

 

[DavidL]

Hi flyboy013 - I was wondering if you made headway. Didn't see you post on that "other" forum. So, tell us a bit more about your KIB adventure. Did you find protocol docs? Squeeze it out of KIB? Reverse engineer it? Are you talking to KIB via the RV-C network? Do they follow RV-C standards or did they mod it a bit to make it proprietary? Does your hardware talk only RV-C? or other networks as well? Does / Can your solution talk MQTT by chance to integrate with our myServer automation system? If so, we could very quickly add support for it. If not MQTT - any other integration methods supported? Are you thinking you will go commercial with it?
Congrats!! I know you have been beavering away at it for quite a while. Wish my rig supported the newer protocols so I had something to test and develop with! I did purchase a CAN module to write software with but haven't found the time yet.

"do things like treat a shade as a shade instead of as a light bulb." myServer (and many other automation systems) treat a shade as a lighting device. The "dim" value opens the shade to "50%" open. Shades fall into myServer's "lighting family" (a class of devices).

I would be very surprised if Newmar took interest in it. I suspect you will have to go direct to consumers. Would be good to start a list of "known compatible with" and test results.

 

[flyboy013]

Hi flyboy013 - I was wondering if you made headway.

I’ve made quite a bit of progress. I currently have integrated with both the RV-C and KIB networks. I’ve been improving things as issues or lack of capabilities pop up. At this point in time, I think I have a very very good beta capability. Still finalizing the HW.

Didn't see you post on that "other" forum.

I had posted an update on the "other" forum a while back, but the moderators had issues with it. Whatever.

So, tell us a bit more about your KIB adventure. Did you find protocol docs? Squeeze it out of KIB? Reverse engineer it?

I did not find any additional KIB documents. I (with some help) was able to analyze the KIB capability and integrate with it. I won’t say that it was reverse engineered it, as some may have issues with that terminology.

Are you talking to KIB via the RV-C network? Do they follow RV-C standards or did they mod it a bit to make it proprietary?

The KIB network is not a RV-C based network.

Does your hardware talk only RV-C? or other networks as well?

It talks to both the RV-C and KIB networks. It also talks to other components (ie. electric waste vales) via MQTT.

Does / Can your solution talk MQTT by chance to integrate with our myServer automation system? If so, we could very quickly add support for it. If not MQTT - any other integration methods supported? Are you thinking you will go commercial with it?

The solution does utilize MQTT, but it is not designed to be an interface to external systems. The MQTT server is currently userid/password protected. The goal is to secure it further with SSL, limiting access to LAN, and restricting accounts to reading/writing only a portion of the data in the database. I worked developing DoD systems for quite some time and understand the need for securing the system.

Congrats!! I know you have been beavering away at it for quite a while. Wish my rig supported the newer protocols so I had something to test and develop with! I did purchase a CAN module to write software with but haven't found the time yet.

"do things like treat a shade as a shade instead of as a light bulb." myServer (and many other automation systems) treat a shade as a lighting device. The "dim" value opens the shade to "50%" open. Shades fall into myServer's "lighting family" (a class of devices).

I total agree that many systems are treating a shade as a light bulb. That was I original didm but I didn't like having to tell Alexa to turn a shade on/off in order to raise/lower it. It just doesn't make sense. That's why I decided to develop an Alexa skill. So that I have just better control of the various device. My goal is to be able to ask "Alexa, what is the house battery level" or "What is the grey tank level" and have it tell me the appropriate value. You cannot do that by treating devices as light bulbs.

I would be very surprised if Newmar took interest in it. I suspect you will have to go direct to consumers. Would be good to start a list of "known compatible with" and test results.

I suspect you are right about Newmar not being interested. I'd believe there is a market for this capability. I wish I had already push this capability out. It was my intent to have it done, but to be honest the KIB integration ended up being an issue for me that just took time to resolve. Now, my biggest obstacle is designing a PCB. It's a new technology for me, but fortunately I have a few kids that have provide me needed guidance. Perhaps the biggest issue is dedicating the necessary time while I'm not on the road. Seems like when I'm home there just too many things that need to be taken care of!.

 

[AbdRahim]

Looks like great work. I guess I am old school. One of the reasons I went with the Bay Star as opposed to the Tiffin open Road was switches - no computer panel. I can fix switches. Where are the wires my panel is controlling?

Hats off to those who love that stuff.

 

[DavidL]

"The solution does utilize MQTT, but it is not designed to be an interface to external systems. The MQTT server is currently userid/password protected. The goal is to secure it further with SSL, limiting access to LAN, and restricting accounts to reading/writing only a portion of the data in the database. I worked developing DoD systems for quite some time and understand the need for securing the system."

Are you saying that with proper credentials, that a third party system couldn't use the MQTT to bidirectionally control KIB / RV-C devices using your solution?
I would rather leverage your solution (including pointing people to buy yours or resell yours) than spend the effort to reverse the KIB protocol for the small number of expected people that would want to use it (relatively speaking). The two systems would be on same LAN. The user IDs would belong to the owner of the RV. Certainly we would need to know how to pass and accept the authentication method you use.

So hardware wise, on your RV - is your hardware on a breadboard? And your talented kids are helping you get it onto a PCB?
FYI, there are lots of free PCB design software (Kicad is one). Once you have your circuit in the software, you just email the resultant file to one of thousands of inexpensive PCB manufacturers that support that output format. Then a week later, you will get the PCB populated or not (depending on what you choose). Easy peasy.

Would be nice if the PCB was designed as a Raspberry Pi4 Hat.
Another thing to consider is I assume KIB is just a CAN based protocol. There are lots of PCB / Hats for CAN readily available. Just write your software for it.

 

[flyboy013]

"The solution does utilize MQTT, but it is not designed to be an interface to external systems. The MQTT server is currently userid/password protected. The goal is to secure it further with SSL, limiting access to LAN, and restricting accounts to reading/writing only a portion of the data in the database. I worked developing DoD systems for quite some time and understand the need for securing the system."

Are you saying that with proper credentials, that a third party system couldn't use the MQTT to bidirectionally control KIB / RV-C devices using your solution?

The system is being design too be locked down such that only the required network ports are exposed and that those ports are as secure as possible. I’ve developed quite a bit of software for the DoD and fully understand the need to and value of properly securing systems. That’s not to say that access to the MQTT server cannot be made available, it’s just not there now as has been no need.

I would rather leverage your solution (including pointing people to buy yours or resell yours) than spend the effort to reverse the KIB protocol for the small number of expected people that would want to use it (relatively speaking). The two systems would be on same LAN. The user IDs would belong to the owner of the RV. Certainly we would need to know how to pass and accept the authentication method you use.

So hardware wise, on your RV - is your hardware on a breadboard?

Not really. I 3D printed some support brackets to mount the required components, but there are still some jumper wires.

And your talented kids are helping you get it onto a PCB?
FYI, there are lots of free PCB design software (Kicad is one).

I am currently using KiCad for my design work. FYI - The RPi itself is designed with KiCad.


Once you have your circuit in the software, you just email the resultant file to one of thousands of inexpensive PCB manufacturers that support that output format. Then a week later, you will get the PCB populated or not (depending on what you choose). Easy peasy.

Would be nice if the PCB was designed as a Raspberry Pi4 Hat.
Another thing to consider is I assume KIB is just a CAN based protocol. There are lots of PCB / Hats for CAN readily available. Just write your software for it.

KIB is not CAN based.

 

[DavidL]

The system is being design too be locked down such that only the required network ports are exposed and that those ports are as secure as possible. I’ve developed quite a bit of software for the DoD and fully understand the need to and value of properly securing systems. That’s not to say that access to the MQTT server cannot be made available, it’s just not there now as has been no need.


Not really. I 3D printed some support brackets to mount the required components, but there are still some jumper wires.


I am currently using KiCad for my design work. FYI - The RPi itself is designed with KiCad.


Once you have your circuit in the software, you just email the resultant file to one of thousands of inexpensive PCB manufacturers that support that output format. Then a week later, you will get the PCB populated or not (depending on what you choose). Easy peasy.

KIB is not CAN based.

Ok, my next guess on KIB is it is RS485 and maybe Modbus? I have some info here somewhere in a directory...just do not have enough detail to write software to without reverse engineering it (like you have).
I guess I am with these questions understanding if we can work together on your hardware talking KIB / possibly RV-C and bidirectionally sending data via MQTT to our myServer 6 application for rules / UI / integration with lots of other stuff. If you have other plans, that's cool too. Just keeping this on my radar as a neat integration that some might enjoy.

Yes, totally get the some folks want secure. Our system has configuration options for levels of security as well. We use it in many government installations now where that is spec required.

 

[Always_curious]

Ok, my next guess on KIB is it is RS485 and maybe Modbus? I have some info here somewhere in a directory...just do not have enough detail to write software to without reverse engineering it (like you have).
I guess I am with these questions understanding if we can work together on your hardware talking KIB / possibly RV-C and bidirectionally sending data via MQTT to our myServer 6 application for rules / UI / integration with lots of other stuff. If you have other plans, that's cool too. Just keeping this on my radar as a neat integration that some might enjoy.

Yes, totally get the some folks want secure. Our system has configuration options for levels of security as well. We use it in many government installations now where that is spec required.

The system is being design too be locked down such that only the required network ports are exposed and that those ports are as secure as possible. I’ve developed quite a bit of software for the DoD and fully understand the need to and value of properly securing systems. That’s not to say that access to the MQTT server cannot be made available, it’s just not there now as has been no need.


Not really. I 3D printed some support brackets to mount the required components, but there are still some jumper wires.


I am currently using KiCad for my design work. FYI - The RPi itself is designed with KiCad.


Once you have your circuit in the software, you just email the resultant file to one of thousands of inexpensive PCB manufacturers that support that output format. Then a week later, you will get the PCB populated or not (depending on what you choose). Easy peasy.

KIB is not CAN based.

Flyboy
I have a 2021 LADP and am very interested in the automation work you’re doing in “your spare time”. We’re located in New York and will probably be driving through MD sometime before end of year. Am interested in installing your beta if you’re willing. I am a technologist and handy so can probably do most of the work with a little support. Let me know if you’d like to discuss.

 

[flyboy013]

So here’s an update …

While at the Newmar International Rally last month, I approached Newmar engineering about the developed capability. They liked what they saw, but were not interested in any kind of direct relationship to make this a Newmar capability. I was basically told to work with KIB. I did provide a demonstration to KIB. They liked what they saw and indicated that they were going to start developing a similar capability in about a year. They said they would be interested in hiring me to help them. Well that ain’t going to happen. The days of me working for someone else are long gone. Plus, I suspect a KIB developed capability will be limited to KIB functionality and not truly fulfill the needs of Newmar owners (this will probably depend on which model you have and what other systems are also installed).

So, if I want this capability to see the light of day (beyond my MH), it’s going to be up to me to market, sell, support, etc the capability.

I’m currently on the road out west and will be back in MD in the fall and will then be heading to SW FL for the winter. My current thought is to identify a beta tester in SW Florida as I will be there to babysit the system and resolve any problems that may occur.

While on the road, I’m continuing to improve capability. As we crossed 3 timelines my automations occurred earlier and earlier. I now automatically update the system clock based on the current GPS based time zone so that automations continue to happen at the right time. Another one of those capabilities that only someone who travels/lives in their will full appreciated and understand the need for it. I always wondered why my Silverleaf system didn’t update automatically.

 

[Always_curious]

So here’s an update …

While at the Newmar International Rally last month, I approached Newmar engineering about the developed capability. They liked what they saw, but were not interested in any kind of direct relationship to make this a Newmar capability. I was basically told to work with KIB. I did provide a demonstration to KIB. They liked what they saw and indicated that they were going to start developing a similar capability in about a year. They said they would be interested in hiring me to help them. Well that ain’t going to happen. The days of me working for someone else are long gone. Plus, I suspect a KIB developed capability will be limited to KIB functionality and not truly fulfill the needs of Newmar owners (this will probably depend on which model you have and what other systems are also installed).

So, if I want this capability to see the light of day (beyond my MH), it’s going to be up to me to market, sell, support, etc the capability.

I’m currently on the road out west and will be back in MD in the fall and will then be heading to SW FL for the winter. My current thought is to identify a beta tester in SW Florida as I will be there to babysit the system and resolve any problems that may occur.

While on the road, I’m continuing to improve capability. As we crossed 3 timelines my automations occurred earlier and earlier. I now automatically update the system clock based on the current GPS based time zone so that automations continue to happen at the right time. Another one of those capabilities that only someone who travels/lives in their will full appreciated and understand the need for it. I always wondered why my Silverleaf system didn’t update automatically.

Thanks for the update! Yikes. Partnering with KIB would probably be a nightmare. I don’t think they have the right architecture, and more importantly, the right product vision. Where in SW FL. The reason we’ll be passing through MD in fall is on the way to Naples where we’ll spend 3 months at the Naples Motor Coach resort (until end of Feb).

 

[DavidL]

Not too surprising the response from Newmar and KIB. Roll your own. I was in your situation about 15 years ago. Now on my own with thousands of clients. But it's a full time and a half job. Are you REALLY retired? But heck of a lot better to be working hard for myself than for the big ole company. The offer stands if you would like to work together. At some point I will roll up the sleeves to catch up on KIB / RV-C protocol. Too many other projects and that's why I want to work with you since you have already been down that path. Secure MQTT integration

 

[flyboy013]

Thanks for the update! Yikes. Partnering with KIB would probably be a nightmare. I don’t think they have the right architecture, and more importantly, the right product vision. Where in SW FL. The reason we’ll be passing through MD in fall is on the way to Naples where we’ll spend 3 months at the Naples Motor Coach resort (until end of Feb).

PM sent.

 

[MiKaLo]

Right now I would just like to be able to use my smartphone or tablet to access the KIB panel!
Turn lights on/off, shades etc without having to access panels in each room.
Then add capabilities from there.

 

[the_fu]

@flyboy013 - I am a long time class A owner that just purchased a 2021 Newmar NA 3543. I am an automation nerd. I need what you have for my new coach. I think I can help you in a lot of ways. I just recently exited from 9 years helping build the most successful aquarium automation equipment on the market - the Apex - and helping sell it off to PE. PM me as since I am new here it seems it will not allow me to PM you. We should talk.

 

[Madmellow]

This is exactly what I want to accomplish on my 2022 MADP, with the ultimate goal of connecting to HomeSeer. Any advice would help. What HW? Where are the RV-C ports? I’m just starting.