Deploying jacks w/out dumping air bags (not related to slide operation)

[Joe Dutchstar]

That said, I have seen the techs at Newmar lift all tires off ground with only the jacks, supported with jack stands for safety.

 

[ARD]

Spoke with Chris at Spartan and he does not think it is a good idea to extend jacks without dumping. You could pull the shock apart like what happened to a customer here (I saw the photo ) , or damage air bag. The danger is over extending. If you do try it, he said stop as soon as jack touches ground. Having said that, he said he would be afraid and would not do it as there is not much room for full airbag and shock.

Having seen a photo of the shock being pulled apart from overextending, I personally wouldn't risk it.

 

[Joe Dutchstar]

Note blocks under the jack pad, but wheels are off the ground, jacks only. I guess a question would be are the bags full or empty.

 

[Joe Dutchstar]

As I ponder this thought of full bags and over extending the jacks, it may be the inflated air bags are pushing the axles down past limits and breaking things.

Hummm…

 

[Neal]

@J&JD I think the important part you explained above is you're in a contingency situation, not asking about normal ops? Just so others can know and learn so they don't try something maybe they shouldn't, just a thought.

Is your AA working and trustworthy enough that you could use it to manually level using the AA leveling controls? If you go back to Travel mode will AA set ride height properly? I guess I am not clear on what failure you're seeing with AA and what limitations you have with it in your current situation.

 

[ARD]

you're in a contingency situation, not asking about normal ops?

In my opinion, it’s still too risky. After seeing the potential consequences of overextending, I would travel, search for a site as flat as possible, remain aired up, and not use the jacks.

 

[J&JD]

My problem here is that AA has gone nuts. It will not get all bags to travel mode and I cannot air level. In order to move the coach at all I have to shut the entire system down and manually inflate all the bags to appropriate travel pressure. I can dump the bags and extend the jacks to level the coach when parked. But if I dump all the bags it takes a long time to manually refill them to get to travel height. To compound the problem it’s impossible to get the coach in the correct posture to extend the slides! So…this is why I asked the original question about deploying the jacks without dumping the air bags.
Good news is we are 3/4ths of the 2000 mile trip to HWH down. Hopefully we can make our Monday appointment

 

[Neal]

Thanks for the explanation, I was wondering what was going on. My biggest concern about a niche system like this is service and hoping HWH can continue to support us in the years ahead. I hate to think of what if's.

Safe travels the remainder of the journey and look forward to hearing what they find.

 

[ARD]

I feel your pain. I can't air level as I have a slow leak on irv2 line from secondary air tank most probably due to Newmar's sloppy work - welding splatter when putting house on chassis. Safe travels friends. Hope they get you all fixed up.

 

[J&JD]

Hope they get you all fixed up.

And you too Miss Renee!

 

[Rich W.]

My problem here is that AA has gone nuts. It will not get all bags to travel mode and I cannot air level. In order to move the coach at all I have to shut the entire system down and manually inflate all the bags to appropriate travel pressure. I can dump the bags and extend the jacks to level the coach when parked. But if I dump all the bags it takes a long time to manually refill them to get to travel height. To compound the problem it’s impossible to get the coach in the correct posture to extend the slides! So…this is why I asked the original question about deploying the jacks without dumping the air bags.
Good news is we are 3/4ths of the 2000 mile trip to HWH down. Hopefully we can make our Monday appointment

Ok I’ll weigh on here with my theory, right or wrong. I’ve been reluctant to throw in my .02 worth because I really don’t know, but what occurred to me when you first posed the question a couple days ago is that the bags can extend further when empty than when full (because they are fatter and thus shorter when full) so lifting the coach enough to hang the suspension to the stops with the bags full could rip them from their mounts if they can not fully extend to that distance.

This is just based on physics/geometry and not any experience as I’ve never tried it (and don’t plan to). But I do have a lot of experience with air bags of all shapes and sizes (including bags big enough to right a semi-truck on its side) and air bags shrink in one direction when they expand in another. So empty bags can, in theory, extend further than full ones.

So for the trip to HWH I would just find places to park that are close enough to level and live with it. I had one jack going quite wonky (lifting the left rear corner of the coach far more than the rest) and as soon as I realized I had a problem, I stopped leveling until I could get to HWH (a 2,000 mile jaunt for us as well), where they replaced some valve for around a hundred bucks and solved the problem. Twisting the frame could have been far more costly, as would ripping out your air bags. At the very least I’d consult Freightliner. Maybe ask Don at the Sacramento Truck RV shop.

 

[Neal]

Let me divert the subject a little bit for those of us with HWH Active Air. What would you try to do to fix the issue assuming it's an AA issue? Things I'm thinking of:

1. Remove power from AA to force the board to reboot
2. Remove and replace all connectors going to the control board, making sure they are seated properly
3. Check the wires at the front aux pump, several of us have had the ground wire disconnected, I think in my case when I returned to HWH for an issue the ground wire was never actually connected
4. I think @redbaron had to replace a solenoid long ago with one of his coaches that had me asking HWH at my install what spare parts should I carry with me. In the end they said none but I knew @redbaron had to replace a solenoid I think it was so I really wanted one as a spare.
5. Beyond that all I can think of is listen or check for leaks in the air lines
6. Make sure the air tanks are airing up and holding levels, review the pressure readings on the HWH control panel inside.
7. I'm not sure if having HWH send a new control board to us would be an option if we could swap it out for troubleshooting? Maybe the board is bad?

 

[Roadglide117]

If the bag is over extended it is very possible to blow a bag, especially older unit where bag is old.

 

[redbaron]

@Neal carrying the solenoid is still something I do. It is a major failure part, and required for active Air operations while driving.

For coaches without active air the solenoid only activates when using the pump, so less prone to failure.

@J&JD the advice to dump air should be followed. The mount points for the jack are extended by the airbag. You will either twist frame, hyper extend jacks, or snap a shock.

The most likely scenario is hyper extending jacks which will then cause one of the other failures as well as bend a jack.

To fill the airbags quickly, use the air in the generator bay to fill all 4 bags at once. This is right below the air supply and is used to fill the air when being towed. Your AA should be already disabled by pulling the fuse so the tanks and bags should inflate . If you find them leaking down, you need to pull the fuse.

In the completely offline state, your air will function just like it did before ACtive air installation.

The only reason to use the individual bag inflate is to set the ride profile to the bags independently.

This is based on how my 2013 and 2019 were plumbed. I have heard that some installations removed the original fill points, and that may be a spartan thing. If that’s the case then you will have to fill each one individually.

May be easier to keep coach on travel air and full wall slide in. Other slides are more forgiving on extending but as always “mind the gap “

 

[J&JD]

@Neal and @redbaron , thanks for all your comments and help. We have made it to Lincoln Nebraska from the Bay Area (1700 miles) so far managing this crazy system. The last leg to HWH hopefully will be finished tomorrow with a Monday morning appointment there. I will post a full report when we get this darn thing diagnosed.
Thanks again!