Collision Mitigation Systems in a Motorhome?

[Neal]

Newmar offers the OnGuard Collision Mitigation system which may not even be an option now in some highline coaches, it also can be a rather expensive option. I haven't read up on all of the features but I'm curious of those that have used it what is your impression?

OnGuard Collision Mitigation System

OnGuard assists bus drivers in recognizing and responding to dangerous driving scenarios that could lead to a rear-end collision.

www.wabco-auto.com

What got my interest is I'm in a rental car on a short trip back home from the coach and the Subaru I'm in has all this fancy stuff. Lane departure warnings, warning lights on mirrors when someone is in the blindspot, if on cruise control it will slow you down to keep distance from the vehicle in front as you approach it, etc. I'm on the fence between annoyance and safety.

What are your opinions on vehicles with these safeguards?

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

We have the WABCO OnGuard Collision Mitigation System in our 2018 Mountain Aire, @Neal, and wish we had not spent the money on it. In fact, we have considered having it removed, but that is apparently hard to do.

It works fine about 95% of the time; the remaining 5% is what keeps us in terror. We have had several false triggers at highway speed where hard braking was experienced with no other vehicles in close proximity. It is scary when that happens! On a wet or icy roadway, it could be disastrous!

One case occurred when we crossed under an overpass and there was a significant long dip in the road surface. I think the sensor may have seen the pavement rise at the end of the dip and triggered. In another case, I think a temporary roadside sign may have been the culprit. In the 2-3 other situations, I couldn't identify a potential cause.

LadyDi has a similar system in her Lincoln and loves it. It has never false-triggered and does provide additional driving safety, so we know these systems can work. IMHO, the OnGuard system does not.

TJ

 

[Neal]

In this rental car stepping on the gas stops the collision system deceleration.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

Same with the OnGuard system, @Neal, but that's only after you've experienced the false trigger and recovered from the surprise factor. There is also a brief delay in disengagement after you step on the throttle.

TJ

 

[Jabber Jaw]

The system used in GM vehicles has been quite impressive to me, & so far has had no "false" trigger or otherwise.
Coming South to I-495, did the western route to the I-95 "mixing bowl", and never had to disengage it. Although, I never had to stop either, which is highly unusual on that stretch of roadway!
Not too sure how I would feel bout having it in an "RV"! Cautious, at best, especially after TJ's post!

 

[NWIP]

We got it on the new 2020 DS but have only driven about 150 so far, jury still out. Disappointed in @TJ&LadyDi review. Rented a Lincoln MKX in September which was my first experience and liked it once I got it figured out.

 

[turbopilot]

Newmar offers the OnGuard Collision Mitigation system which may not even be an option now in some highline coaches, it also can be a rather expensive option. I haven't read up on all of the features but I'm curious of those that have used it what is your impression?

OnGuard Collision Mitigation System

OnGuard assists bus drivers in recognizing and responding to dangerous driving scenarios that could lead to a rear-end collision.

www.wabco-auto.com

What got my interest is I'm in a rental car on a short trip back home from the coach and the Subaru I'm in has all this fancy stuff. Lane departure warnings, warning lights on mirrors when someone is in the blindspot, if on cruise control it will slow you down to keep distance from the vehicle in front as you approach it, etc. I'm on the fence between annoyance and safety.

What are your opinions on vehicles with these safeguards?

Neil, the problem with asking this question about OnGuard is that I am unaware (based on watching the forums) that OnGuard has ever been used for "collision mitigation" in a motorhome. I certainly have never used that feature on my New Aire with OnGuard. The purpose of this system is to help the driver lessen the kinetic energy before an impending impact by reacting to such a collision far faster than a human can react. The system has some issues while waiting to be used for it's primary purpose. In my opinion the problems will seem trivial the first time this system deploys to save my butt. In many ways OnGuard is analogous to seat belts systems. Seat belts are a real hassle because you never really use them for their intended purpose, until you do.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

We got it on the new 2020 DS but have only driven about 150 so far, jury still out. Disappointed in @TJ&LadyDi review. Rented a Lincoln MKX in September which was my first experience and liked it once I got it figured out.

Bill:

I'm pretty sure WABCO is aware of the false triggering with its OnGuard system as others have reported it over on that other forum. They may even have a software fix by now; I need to check with them.

TJ

 

[turbopilot]

Bill:

I'm pretty sure WABCO is aware of the false triggering with its OnGuard system as others have reported it over on that other forum. They may even have a software fix by now; I need to check with them.

TJ

Not sure what you mean by false triggering. I got one of the very first OnGuard systems delivered on a Newmar in the Fall of 2018. 15,000 miles of experience so far. The system has never falsely triggered the maximum application of defueling the engine and applying 50% brakes. On a few occasions it has temporarily reduced power and started brake application when a threat was sensed. In those instances it happened very quickly, then returned to normal.

If you are referring to the audible alerts as "false triggering", in my coach it has never "falsely alerted" with an audible warning. The system has a set of criteria to issue an alert that appears to be an algorithm looking at rate of closure and distance to target to issue an audible alert. I have never had audible warning without a threat in front of me. Typically depending on rate of closure the alert will sound around less than 200' behind a frontal target. It continues to monitor those parameters until a criteria is reached to reduce power and start braking. If the rate of closure is very fast the audible warning will be very close to the application of brakes.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

No, I'm talking about "pry yourself off the steering wheel" braking with no warning! We mentioned it while we were at Newmar and they said they couldn't identify the issue.

Our unit is older than yours; coach delivered in late June 2018.

TJ

 

[turbopilot]

No, I'm talking about "pry yourself off the steering wheel" braking with no warning! We mentioned it while we were at Newmar and they said they couldn't identify the issue.

TJ

Never happened in 15,000 miles. Given the nature of the automation it is easy to guess it may happen some time. The big complaints I have seen on the forums are the "nusiance" audible alerts. I have learned to drive the coach the way it is designed to be driven. After the learning period, I am convinced the system knows better than I how close to follow behind traffic. The damn audible warnings are a great training device. I drive in such a way not to get an alert. My dog hates the alerts as well. The only alerts I get now that are unavoidable is an aggressive driver jumping into the "safe space" in front of me then putting on the brakes.

 

[turbopilot]

Good thread on the subject going on the iRV2 Entegra forum. Many of the problems involve poorly aligned antennas. Spartan installations seem to be more problematic.

ACC Adaptive Cruise Control and CMS Collision Mitigation - iRV2 Forums

This is really long but introduces new findings that are not common knowledge. Many people probably have already read my rants about both of these systems that are now included on our 2019 Cornerstone

www.irv2.com

 

[Joe Hogan]

We test drove a Tesla with the adaptive Cruise Control and AutoPilot on and off. Truly remarkable when it works correctly. However, It is very disconcerting. For those of us that are accustomed to a mechanical connection to every control in a vehicle it will take training to operate these systems correctly in my opinion. Anything more than an oral warning with these systems will need to be trained.

The Tesla would abruptly slow and even steer around perceived obstacles. Great when it works but down right scary when there is a false positive. Having a vehicle that starts to make decisions will take a lot of trust and training.

 

[NWIP]

Having been a professional pilot for some 35+ years, advancing technology has been a way of life during my career. Level of automation used in aircraft has been debated for years but bottom line is if it’s not doing what you want, disable and figure why later.

New to this system in 2020 DS and learning how to disable is foremost in the equation prior to using.

 

[Joe Hogan]

Well put Bill, speaking about automation and its issues. For instance a pilot of a Boeing 737 MAX 8 pilot needs training on a speedy way to defeat the MCAS system before it drives you into a stall or the ground. If you don't understand the system it can annoy you or kill you.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

Therein lies the major issue with the WABCO OnGuard Collision Mitigation System in our 2018 MADP; it cannot be disabled or "defeated" by the "pilot." When it works (>95% of the time), it works well. When it doesn't (<5% of the time), it is a safety issue that is beyond the control of the operator. Bad design, in my view.

TJ

 

[Cinergi]

I have false activations on my NADP. It’s terrifying and stuff goes flying. I lay rubber on the ground. There was nothing in front of me. No bridges no leaves no birds no cars. Straight highway. Completely bogus.

Freight liner told me there’s a recall on mine to fix this issue.

I find it useless and I find the adaptive cruise useless (I always shut it off). I would never pay for it again.

Not to say other brands are bad - in fact my Tesla was absolutely amazing in this area. I’ll pay for THAT every time. But not onguard.

 

[turbopilot]

I have false activations on my NADP. It’s terrifying and stuff goes flying. I lay rubber on the ground. There was nothing in front of me. No bridges no leaves no birds no cars. Straight highway. Completely bogus.

Freight liner told me there’s a recall on mine to fix this issue.

I find it useless and I find the adaptive cruise useless (I always shut it off). I would never pay for it again.

Not to say other brands are bad - in fact my Tesla was absolutely amazing in this area. I’ll pay for THAT every time. But not onguard.

There must be some common denominator in these false activations. Everyone needs to get along with these systems. They will be standard equipment on all automobiles in the US by 2022. There is a strong push to require the technology on all trucks, though there is no date right now. The technology works so well (in most applications) my guess is that insurance companies will require the technology in the near future to economically secure affordable insurance.

Collision avoidance system radars operate at very high frequencies (76 to 80 GHz). I wonder if some of these false activations result from interference from other radar sources?

I have been driving vehicles with collision avoidance system radar since 2015. I have never experienced a false activation leading to "rubber on the road". In 14,000 miles in the NA with OnGuard I have experienced the "haptic" brake pedal "pre-warn" on a couple of occasions, but never without some activity in the radar zone in front of the coach. Driving my BMW I experienced one event of light braking when the system sensed a bike rider moving along the right should of the highway. All in all I would guess I have well over 100,000 miles driving behind radar based collision avoidance systems since 2015.

 

[Cinergi]

If it operated as well as Tesla's, I'd be all for it. I can only pray OnGuard gets better or they switch vendors. FWIW I have almost 17k on my NADP odometer now.
I drove the Tesla for 3 years with it and it was nearly perfect (and the burps were very minor).

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

So, when is Tesla going into the motorhome business?

TJ