Question House batteries

[Kevin D Pem]

It's been a while! Probably 2018. Some references were books, but some were online!!! I will spend some time looking.

 

[lostinfla]

Please do share links to such research on LiFePO4 batteries being a fire hazard as you describe.

Best,
-Mark

I too would like to see that.

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

Ditto on wanting to see recent research.
Battery technology is quickly changing and with larger volumes of batteries in use, we now have the ability to have a larger set of real world data and not just theory based on lab sized sets of data.
I understand that Lithium Ion batteries have a higher risk of run away heat and is the battery that is seen in use in highly publicized pictures, but Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) has been a much safer and stable composition. But LiFePo4 has a lower energy density than Lithium Ion.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

I know that the battery university website is shrouded by controversy, but the data is valid. This blog also has valid data, but is jaded with sales in mind!

Qnovo | WHAT HAPPENS AFTER 80%?

So much of my data came from research I did while experimenting and building my 90 ah 24v lithium-ion packs(2) for a pop-up slide in camper build, to use for a summer of traveling! Ion batteries were the choice for size and weight.

I tell you this as a preface to this subject. LiFePo4 were avaliable, as well as LTO, the hazards are much the same in all but the LTO, but that's another story!

That YouTuber that talks and tests lithium agree in the context that manufacturers can't make parts that don't vary. He points to quality as a measure that you get as a minimum what has been advertised. But in the world of quality, the cells must be classified through testing, not only capacity, but resistance. The parameters are grueling and extensive. Mismatched cells can be disastrous. So at manufacture date they are matched as precisely as humanly possible.

Over time imperfections in material start to show their ugly head. Cells become less matched and don't charge equally. BMS to the rescue!

Two types of BMS are produced, active(only the most expensive packs have them), and passive (most common)! To answer Neal's question 80% charge only works to save the batteries if the BMS is active! A passive BMS requires a 100% charge to equalize the cells.

BMS literally can claim savior status when we talk lithium. Without them you would not find lithium on the shelves! But they can't change the chemistry that makes them nessassary. Over time the unbalanced cells (we are talking physical characteristics) can't be overcome with balancing schemes. When the differences in cells become pronounced enough, we get to that 80% number, and quickly escalate.

So you ask, what happens at the 80% number that makes a fire Hazard?? The BMS is built to negotiate a new battery!

People, not educated enough to deal with the issue, continue bringing the pack down to 20% charge! They complain that their battery no longer makes it the expected duration.

BUT!!!

Internally some cells continue providing as usual, while those that are struggling with increasing resistance can never catch up! They try but to no avail. The enevitable gets closer, then on one cycle the slacker cell is brought to "0" volts. Then it reverses polarity!

Nice story Kevin! What's the point!!!

Well that cell becomes a dead short! Yes! and the entire battery works in unison to feed that new demand. One they can't fill. The shorted cell overheats to runaway temperatures and turns into a bottle rocket. But it doesn't stop there! The cell next door quickly overheats, and the chain reaction can't be stopped!!!

now I have seen LA and other chemistries short out and start fires. However nothing has matched the intensity of a Lithium fire!!! Literally fire departments learn to try and cool the fire because they are the fuel and will continue until there is no more power.

I gave you a few resources! My experiment told me what I needed to know! Lithium is far from new technology! If you're reading this likely the discovery was made before you could count! I know it was before I could! It simply was learned how it could almost be controlled.

Don't look for advancements that will make it truly safe. Not in yours or your offsprings life! Not going to happen!!!

 

[MarkMaxPayne]

I know that the battery university website is shrouded by controversy, but the data is valid. This blog also has valid data, but is jaded with sales in mind!

Qnovo | WHAT HAPPENS AFTER 80%?

So much of my data came from research I did while experimenting and building my 90 ah 24v lithium-ion packs(2) for a pop-up slide in camper build, to use for a summer of traveling! Ion batteries were the choice for size and weight.

I tell you this as a preface to this subject. LiFePo4 were avaliable, as well as LTO, the hazards are much the same in all but the LTO, but that's another story!

Sorry, maybe I'm missing something here. Isn't that article all about Lithium Ion batteries? A completely different chemistry than the Lithium Iron Phosphates we've been talking about? I'd love to see similar articles/data attributed to the LiFePO4's being discussed in this thread.

Best,
-Mark

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

The electrolyte is quite different between lithium ion and lithium iron phosphate.
As I understand the electrolyte in lithium ion is a liquid, which in extreme heat will boil off, then that causes a chain reaction.
But the electrolyte in lithium iron phosphate is not a liquid that will boil off, preventing the stereotypical lithium ion battery fire.
Just my $0.02
Not a battery engineer, just someone who likes to read and understand - an analyst who likes to understand various perspectives and try to find the truth.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

The electrolyte is quite different between lithium ion and lithium iron phosphate.
As I understand the electrolyte in lithium ion is a liquid, which in extreme heat will boil off, then that causes a chain reaction.
But the electrolyte in lithium iron phosphate is not a liquid that will boil off, preventing the stereotypical lithium ion battery fire.
Just my $0.02
Not a battery engineer, just someone who likes to read and understand - an analyst who likes to understand various perspectives and try to find the truth.

Of course! In the short search for resources to share, many of the older data has been scrubbed. I won't go into why I believe that is, although relevant!!!

But lithium is lithium. The original lithium never made it out of the lab. Seems that pure lithium is a powder keg! But searching the internet comes up blank on that research! Guess they don't want that history out there while they push this power storage medium!

So with each version, the are less volatile, and less energy dense. LTOs are very stable, with almost lifetime cycle life. However they are heavier, and considerably larger.

The size and weight increases along with decreased energy density are from the lower lithium content.

My prediction based on my assumption there will be an even larger number of fires due to aging number of batteries, nothing else, is a move to the LTOs with the promise they won't burn down.

You may remember the serious fires, but those new to the game will tell you there is a big difference in chemistry, though your research is burned into your memory!!!

and no! The difference is in the cathod and anode, not the electrolyte.

When I studied, there was: lithium-ion, lithium-polymer, liFePo4, and LTO. At that time all the data circulated freely on the net! Where and why did it go???

Nope! The only difference in the chemistry between them is the volume of other minerals to make the lithium less volatile. Does that make them safe? Well safer! Do they have a larger cycle life? Yes! Does that make all cells age equally? No! We are seeing evidence that that aging still results in !

You must do what you will do! I will not go down with the karma from my lack of action!!! I release it!!!

 

[Neal]

Currently have the 8 flooded batteries and was wondering, when it's time to replace, if I should go with lithium or just agm batteries. (No solar) We seldom boondock, but were stuck without power for a few days from the hurricane in SC, so I'm starting to think ahead. I have the magnum panel with SOC display but not sure it's compatible with lithium. Also, with lithium, I assume they are all 12v?

Here is the OP - let's get back on track.

 

[GlampDaddy]

For what it's worth...a friend was recently booted from NIRVC storage in Lewisville for his new Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. He was told he could only keep his coach in their storage facility if he purchased his batteries from NIRVC and they installed them. I'm guessing where you buy them affects flammability. Interestingly, the owner keeps (and charges) his Tesla in the same building.

 

[MarkMaxPayne]

For what it's worth...a friend was recently booted from NIRVC storage in Lewisville for his new Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. He was told he could only keep his coach in their storage facility if he purchased his batteries from NIRVC and they installed them. I'm guessing where you buy them affects flammability. Interestingly, the owner keeps (and charges) his Tesla in the same building.

Crazy... Sounds like a fishing expedition for even more $. What if factory installed? Lol.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Sounds more like an insurance mandate. My guess is information about DIY was left out.

 

[Underboss]

For what it's worth...a friend was recently booted from NIRVC storage in Lewisville for his new Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries. He was told he could only keep his coach in their storage facility if he purchased his batteries from NIRVC and they installed them. I'm guessing where you buy them affects flammability. Interestingly, the owner keeps (and charges) his Tesla in the same building.

They have a responsibility to the other folks storing vehicles and insurance requirements. I would imagine the "only if NIRVC installed them" is an add on and not actually what was stated.
As a side note, a friend spent over a million on a coach and the builder installed lithium, enough to run the ac's all night. There was a charging issue so he went back to the factory, they changed the settings. He drove home the next day, plugged in and it not only blew his house (sticks and bricks) panel, it blew the neighbors panel.
Yes, many folks who should not be messing with lithium, are. And even the pros are having issues.

 

[Richpatty]

There was a charging issue so he went back to the factory, they changed the settings. He drove home the next day, plugged in and it not only blew his house (sticks and bricks) panel, it blew the neighbors panel.
Yes, many folks who should not be messing with lithium, are. And even the pros are having issues.

That sounds like a bit much to me…. How could someone’s RV charger blow out their breaker panel AND their neighbors. I just can’t see how that could happen.

 

[Underboss]

That sounds like a bit much to me…. How could someone’s RV charger blow out their breaker panel AND their neighbors. I just can’t see how that could happen.

The neighbor was out of town. His panel and outside 50 amp plug is 20' from his neighbors panel. I cannot explain, all I can say is what it did. He has a 45' on a Cascadia with three a/c's. His lithium system is built to handle all three a/cs and refrigerator. Not a small system.
His house has a 400 amp service. I went over right after it happened. I have seen stranger things happen. Maybe FPL could explain it to you. But it appears that there was some programming issue that sent the power backwards toward the panel. Not a stretch to see how that could affect a nearby panel.
Point being, too many amateurs, including "professionals" messing with lithium. I would not want to damage another rigs because I allowed a poorly installed lithium system to be stored next to their rig.
Every week or so you see horror stories about lithium caused fires due to one source or another. Go on a golf cart forum and read about how many did the conversion and ended up with a fire. And gc installations are very simple.

 

[Richpatty]

This is not a lithium issue. It is an electrical one. Lithium are DC…usually 12v. The house is 120v AC. The only way that power could get back to the house (backwards?) is through the inverter/charger…and even then, I don’t see how it could happen unless something is wired REALLY odd. Again, if you stack enough lead acid batteries, you can create the same amount of amperage and power.

This is an electrical issue…. I really hate to see folks blame the type of batteries for issues such as these.

 

[Richpatty]

The more I think about this, I would think this would have more to do with the power company than the RV…. It would explain why both homes were effected.

Especially since you do not mention anything that happened to the RV.

 

[Underboss]

This is not a lithium issue. It is an electrical one. Lithium are DC…usually 12v. The house is 120v AC. The only way that power could get back to the house (backwards?) is through the inverter/charger…and even then, I don’t see how it could happen unless something is wired REALLY odd. Again, if you stack enough lead acid batteries, you can create the same amount of amperage and power.

This is an electrical issue…. I really hate to see folks blame the type of batteries for issues such as these.

So you may have overlooked that it was a programming issue. After it happened, he was on the phone with the rv manufacturer and the company that made the system. They had him connect an ethernet cable directly to the system and they had to reprogram the system. They claimed that when they reprogrammed it on his factory visit, they made an error in the settings. Apparently they understood the issue which goes to my point that the average person does not, as witnessed by the replies.
Of course if you stack 40 lead acid batteries you could match his lithium system but thats not the case here. In the end it was the way the LITHIUM system was programmed that caused the issue. Yes, lithium are dc but the system is designed to run 3 alternating current, air conditioners and a fridge so we are not talking a small amount of power.
Earlier you said it could never blow the neighbors breaker but it did as I explained the backfeeding was the cause.
BTW it did nothing to the rv as it backfed to the house, once the neighbors 150 amp panel blew, then his panel blew the system stopped sending power backwards. Also, fyi, if you send power out of your house (solar photovoltaic) without the proper system, it can send power back to the pole. Thats why if you have house solar and the power company is working on the lines due to an outage they make you shut your system down.