Nitrogen in tires

[Buc]

“Bottom line: Nitrogen will slow the amount of tire inflation loss to about one-third of what you’ll experience with air. This means instead of losing one to two PSI per month, you’ll lose ⅓ to ⅔ PSI per month. You’ll still need to check and top off your air roughly every other month to stay within the ideal inflation range. And you’ll spend far more than you’ll save on gas and tire tread life. You’re better off making simple tire maintenance part of your routine.”

Are Nitrogen-Filled Tires Worth the Cost? - Les Schwab.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

For myself,this will be my last comment on this topic!
I can find both pro and con on using nitrogen. I know! I just spent intimate time with duck duck go! National testing laboratories documents are harder to find, but they are my preference on such topics.

Anyhow, will a tire last longer using nitrogen in the tires, and will it have a significant impact on your wallet???

In your daily driver, not likely!

On your bus? I don't know, seems that rubber in commercial applications is very low cost! I don't know, but very few that I know of get close to full milage from a set on the old RV!

So you don't wear them out in most cases!

This is what I have seen here. One tire for your bus is what I pay for a set on the trailer,or the truck. I wear out the truck tires long before the 6 year limit, so nitrogen is not All that important.

On the trailers age is the issue in most years, so I can benefit. However when a set can be had for less than one commercial tire! Well!!!

If you break it down to monthly outlay, you might be surprised!

Why?

Carcass life defined by the manufacturers are based on Air filled tires. Even though they warranty the carcass for 7 in most cases,the real safe life is closer to 5, or 6 years. So monthly cost difference between say 5 and 7 becomes quite significant.

I am sure a few here can talk about bubbles or separation, (but I don't want to fear monger here), leading to tire change in earlier than they would like! Others stretch that time closer to 6 or 7! One extra safe year on the scale.is nothing to sneeze at.

Understand that deterioration from the inside increases tire separation. Tire separation leads to blow outs, and blow outs lead to serious damage,or loss of life!!!

To close I will leave a reference:

Why Should I Fill My Tires With Nitrogen? | Drive Home Safe

Think I need a little time off!!!!

 

[Crazydog]

Thank you Mr. Penn. So what you said is there is no meaningful difference in the life of a tire filled with N as opposed to a tire filled with plain old 78% N from the air all around us.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Thank you Mr. Penn. So what you said is there is no meaningful difference in the life of a tire filled with N as opposed to a tire filled with plain old 78% N from the air all around us.

Let me start with pem is My pen name,but your close!

And if 1 to 2 years on a thousand dollar investment is meaningless! Then maybe you are correct in your interpretation of my Post!!

Let me be more clear for you!!!

1000/60=14 or 168 per tire (rounded down) for each tire to stretch one more year out of it!
No tag 6 times 168 is 1008 for not using nitrogen 1344 with a tag.

I know most users of this site are savvy enough in economics to understand what I was saying!!! And by admission some people who have had blow outs, have stretched the Big Five! There is no guarantee a tire defect was not the reason, however nitrogen would have reduced the likelihood of tire separation!


One or two years is in fact meaningless to me as I have no reason to push replacement dates out, no tire is cheap, but I it was going to cost me 4grand to replace rubber on my truck then I might push the envelope from 5 to 6! But I like my old trailer,and truck to much to risk an early demise!!!

Hope that put more clarity to my post!!

Kevin D PEM

 

[redbaron]

As many of you know, I have a few really nice sports cars. I have had BMW's for 20+ years, and until this year the BMW dealer always used Nitrogen. When I purchased my latest M3 it came from the dealer with Nitrogen. Earlier this year I purchased a new Cadillac CT5V Blackwing, and it did not have nitrogen. I was a little disappointed, as I had always had nitrogen in my sports cars. I assumed that the crazy American's just where not as advanced as the Germans, so I took my Blackwing to the BMW dealer and asked for Nitrogen.

My rep was more than happy to fill it with nitrogen, and didn't even charge me, but while doing so he said that BMW USA has dropped the nitrogen requirement for all cars, including the M, as their data has shown no benefit from running nitrogen.

I personally see the benefit of not having to add or reduce air as the seasons change, but the automotive industry is moving away from it. I am not sure how Porsche is going to change, but my guess is they will continue to fill for a while as they began the trend for the sports cars.

I decided that it wasn't worth getting nitrogen tanks at the house, so I am now going back to 78% nitrogen for all my tires when they need it.

 

[Buc]

As many of you know, I have a few really nice sports cars. I have had BMW's for 20+ years, and until this year the BMW dealer always used Nitrogen. When I purchased my latest M3 it came from the dealer with Nitrogen. Earlier this year I purchased a new Cadillac CT5V Blackwing, and it did not have nitrogen. I was a little disappointed, as I had always had nitrogen in my sports cars. I assumed that the crazy American's just where not as advanced as the Germans, so I took my Blackwing to the BMW dealer and asked for Nitrogen.

My rep was more than happy to fill it with nitrogen, and didn't even charge me, but while doing so he said that BMW USA has dropped the nitrogen requirement for all cars, including the M, as their data has shown no benefit from running nitrogen.

I personally see the benefit of not having to add or reduce air as the seasons change, but the automotive industry is moving away from it. I am not sure how Porsche is going to change, but my guess is they will continue to fill for a while as they began the trend for the sports cars.

I decided that it wasn't worth getting nitrogen tanks at the house, so I am now going back to 78% nitrogen for all my tires when they need it.

Exactly. I have a small compressor for filling tires. I mean, I got it for bicycle tires, but it works well on our cars. I check the tires regularly and fill them as needed (maybe three times per year.

 

[Crazydog]

I know it's difficult for some people to admit they've been paying for something that is absolutely worthless for years.
All I'm asking for is some actual data to support the claims of extended tire life using N. There seems to be only anecdotal evidence.
Otherwise I'll stick to 78%Nitrogen from my compressor.

My rep was more than happy to fill it with nitrogen, and didn't even charge me, but while doing so he said that BMW USA has dropped the nitrogen requirement for all cars, including the M, as their data has shown no benefit from running nitrogen.
Testing conducted independently by Consumer Reports and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration shows that the benefits are more theoretical than practical.

 

[Alan_Hepburn]

My rep was more than happy to fill it with nitrogen, and didn't even charge me, but while doing so he said that BMW USA has dropped the nitrogen requirement for all cars, including the M, as their data has shown no benefit from running nitrogen.

Did he pull a vaccuum on the tire to remove all of the other gases before filling it with nitrogen?

 

[redbaron]

Did he pull a vaccuum on the tire to remove all of the other gases before filling it with nitrogen?

They pump them down to zero on the tires that I added air to.

Yet another reason I don’t want to try to do this at home, it’s not normal to have a pump to pull the air out and I don’t want to buy one.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

What the hell!

Quick calculation:

Volume= original volume (at 1 atmosphere,or your elevation)*(original volume/final pressure)

Zero volume would be impossible to obtain without a vacuum chamber due to the inability to hold a seal! However actual volume of O2 in both nitrogen vs air fill. At the pressure of inflation,using the formula above you can determine the actual volume of O2 in the tire.

No place that offers the service to my knowledge considers the volume at elevation pressure.

Furthermore, over time the O2 will escape the tire,just as the physics used to remove the O2 in their equipment does. You may ask if the tires will do the job anyhow, why bother? Well because the process of adding air will keep the O2 in abundant supply.

On the same principle, topping off the pressure with nitrogen, will continue to reduce any O2 that was in the volume of air during the original tire installation.

There comes a time that everything becomes foolishness, when carried beyond reason!!!

Have a good evening, and don't lose to much sleep over this!!!

 

[Crazydog]

What the hell!

Quick calculation:

Volume= original volume (at 1 atmosphere,or your elevation)*(original volume/final pressure)

Zero volume would be impossible to obtain without a vacuum chamber due to the inability to hold a seal! However actual volume of O2 in both nitrogen vs air fill. At the pressure of inflation,using the formula above you can determine the actual volume of O2 in the tire.

No place that offers the service to my knowledge considers the volume at elevation pressure.

Furthermore, over time the O2 will escape the tire,just as the physics used to remove the O2 in their equipment does. You may ask if the tires will do the job anyhow, why bother? Well because the process of adding air will keep the O2 in abundant supply.

On the same principle, topping off the pressure with nitrogen, will continue to reduce any O2 that was in the volume of air during the original tire installation.

There comes a time that everything becomes foolishness, when carried beyond reason!!!

Have a good evening, and don't lose to much sleep over this!!!

In post #42 you said that was your last comment on this subject, yet here you are.
Carry on.

 

[punkinhead]

Did he pull a vaccuum on the tire to remove all of the other gases before filling it with nitrogen?

How would they keep the bead seated while doing that?

 

[redbaron]

How would they keep the bead seated while doing that?

The pumped it down but there is no way they removed all air.

Thinking about this, even mounting the tire will introduce 22% oxygen that will be diluted with nitrogen.

The more I think about the use of nitrogen the more I am convinced it’s not practical or beneficial.

 

[Joe Hogan]

From Goodyear website

“Some tire shops feel that nitrogen is an important feature to provide to their tire buyers. Besides the cost of acquiring the nitrogen, there is more labor involved in filling tires properly with nitrogen. To remove the regular air from a tire and fill it with nitrogen requires a “purging” process where the tire is repeatedly filled with nitrogen to gradually remove as much of the regular air out of the tire as possible.”

 

[Joe Hogan]

According to Consumer Reports benefits of Nitrogen filled tires, in practical terms, are more theoretical than real.

Should You Use Nitrogen in Your Car Tires? - Consumer Reports

Consumer Reports uses tests and research to explain the benefits of using nitrogen in car tires and advises whether it is worth putting nitrogen in your car or truck.

www.consumerreports.org

 

[Kevin D Pem]

So Joe!

When you were young did you fit in? Or were you ridiculed? My guess is you had few friends! Take heart My friend, if true, your not alone, but rather the universe is full of your family!!!

Anyhow, what you posted is as is expected, full of agenda speak! This is what I read!

1) the choice is based on cost, and convenience!

2) products disappear from shelves, for much the same reasons. (Profit)

3) if we test properly, we will serve our real customers needs, while appearing to serve the public!

Let me explain!!!

Anytime a word or concept is repeated 3 or more times it is marketing!

Just because a product is no longer on your favorite store shelves,does not mean the product is no longer made, or available.

Now the biggest point!

a) to produce the highly reactive ozone,you need the friction that only use will provide. Putting the tires in the sun will only react on the outside of the tires, where those "normal people" expect ozone damage! Notice the 10 year carcuss life pointed out for unused tires!!! Does that corelate to common practice,and recommendation??

Tire resistance (MPG)!!! The least resistance is produced with a new tire! Yes the information is in the report, and passed over! As the ozone reacts with the rubber compound, the compound becomes more brittle (that's the information). This creates friction,that comes from resistance, that creates more heat, and that heat comes from someplace! That is noticable in MPG. The weather cracks that you see in an old tire actually offers better MPG due to the air gap offering a point of least resistance!!!

Like you said Joe! Purging is the way to reduce O2 in an install! That is how a new propane bottle is prepared for a fill. That only need be done with one purging fill, and only requires low pressure!!!

As far as who the sponsor of the project??? Well first why this article is so timely! Online tire sales, would have to downplay the importance of nitrogen fill,and tirerack would gain from such propaganda!!!

And yes, there is always an agenda!!! And you, Joe are less susceptible to the propaganda, because you always research!!!

 

[Buc]

AAA weighed in on this as well.

Top 4 Myths Vs Facts About Using Nitrogen To Inflate Car Tires

 

[Crazydog]

So Joe!

When you were young did you fit in? Or were you ridiculed? My guess is you had few friends! Take heart My friend, if true, your not alone, but rather the universe is full of your family!!!

Anyhow, what you posted is as is expected, full of agenda speak! This is what I read!

1) the choice is based on cost, and convenience!

2) products disappear from shelves, for much the same reasons. (Profit)

3) if we test properly, we will serve our real customers needs, while appearing to serve the public!

Let me explain!!!

Anytime a word or concept is repeated 3 or more times it is marketing!

Just because a product is no longer on your favorite store shelves,does not mean the product is no longer made, or available.

Now the biggest point!

a) to produce the highly reactive ozone,you need the friction that only use will provide. Putting the tires in the sun will only react on the outside of the tires, where those "normal people" expect ozone damage! Notice the 10 year carcuss life pointed out for unused tires!!! Does that corelate to common practice,and recommendation??

Tire resistance (MPG)!!! The least resistance is produced with a new tire! Yes the information is in the report, and passed over! As the ozone reacts with the rubber compound, the compound becomes more brittle (that's the information). This creates friction,that comes from resistance, that creates more heat, and that heat comes from someplace! That is noticable in MPG. The weather cracks that you see in an old tire actually offers better MPG due to the air gap offering a point of least resistance!!!

Like you said Joe! Purging is the way to reduce O2 in an install! That is how a new propane bottle is prepared for a fill. That only need be done with one purging fill, and only requires low pressure!!!

As far as who the sponsor of the project??? Well first why this article is so timely! Online tire sales, would have to downplay the importance of nitrogen fill,and tirerack would gain from such propaganda!!!

And yes, there is always an agenda!!! And you, Joe are less susceptible to the propaganda, because you always research!!!

 

[Kevin D Pem]

So you don't get the motivation issue I stated in my last post?

That's ok,most don't!

This is the thing. This topic is not that important to me!!! It will prove of little importance to others in a short period of time!

The riddle to these topics I involve myself in are simply to waist My time.
I could take the time to explain AAAs motivation, but I'm not going to.

I spend my time when not here learning from people like Clif High who have very good insights.

but all this time spent, is only in waiting for my family to arrive!!! I don't really see how this information will help anyone in the future world!!!

 

[Kevin D Pem]

View attachment 24263

Not hard!!! Reality is only hard when you're wrong!!!