OTR Diagnostics, DEF, Derate Faults

[TJ&LadyDi]

Once we get all the current issues fixed on the coach, we have decided to put it up for sale. We will also be listing our Polson RV lot for sale as well. Enough of this foolishness!

Currently, we are looking for a downsized sticks-and-bricks with a great view and amenities. Driving ticking time bombs has lost its charm for us.

TJ

 

[J&JD]

Once we get all the current issues fixed on the coach, we have decided to put it up for sale. We will also be listing our Polson RV lot for sale as well. Enough of this foolishness!

Currently, we are looking for a downsized sticks-and-bricks with a great view and amenities. Driving ticking time bombs has lost its charm for us.

TJ

So glad we got to meet you in better times. Judy D

 

[J&JD]

I have never turned my engine off when fueling as I’d read somewhere that it’s not good for the engine.

This makes little sense to me. How would the engine know or care if you are adding fuel to the tank? You are adding to the top while it is drawing from the bottom if it is running. If not running it’s not drawing. Would love a logical explanation of why the engine should be running while fueling (except for DEF cycle situation being discussed).

 

[Neemer]

I keep mine running while fueling just so I don’t become “that guy” with a no-start in the truck fuel lane.

 

[FLSteve]

Add me to the "keep mine running" during fuel stops. I have always done that and after reading this thread am glad I do ... plus I agree with Neemer's reason as well.

FLSteve

 

[Joe Hogan]

I've been reading up on the DeRate aspect of a DEF Header failure. It appears that some OEMs have reached an agreement with the EPA to allow an Emergency Authorization Override that allows the DeRated vehicle to operate without the DEF system for a period of time. There is some reporting requirements but that sure beats sitting on the side of some roadway in "who knows wheresville".

Also, Cummings/Freightliner appears to have either a reset or override triggered by a series of key turns and power resets that may help some get to a Service Center without a tow.

Happened across this on the other forum:

"Anyway... that night, I put the key to the left for two hours as suggested by Freightliner who said that sometimes clears the codes. In the morning, per a youtube video, I shut off the chassis batteries for 15 minutes. I also unplugged and turned off the house batteries for good measure. After 15 minutes, I turned the key to the right halfway not starting the engine. I let the system power up for 15 seconds or so and turned the key back off. I repeated that procedure 4 times and then started the engine. I still had the red stop engine light on and I assume I was still d-rated. I let the engine run a while... I'll guess at least 5 minutes. It sure seemed like a long time. After a couple of minutes, the flashing red low def level light went off and the gauge read correctly at 3 green bars. After several more minutes, the Red stop engine light went off and the system was normal. Excited to avoid a tow or a mobile tech, I started the 41-mile drive to Velocity in Tucson. After 10 miles, the orange service engine light came on and the DEF level flashed red, and it remained so the rest of the way. .....
__________________
2017 Newmar Dutchstar 4018"

 

[ARD]

UPDATE: Just received a call from Spartan. I'm getting a DEF Head! I have Brett Davis and Shaun Huxford of NIRVC to thank. They really took great efforts to look out for me and I am so very grateful. I feel like I can breathe again. ?

 

[redbaron]

I too never shut off while fueling. Primary reason, to answer @J&JD question is that a short cycle of a diesel engine is not recommended. These engines take a lot to crank up. A typical fuel stop for me involves pulling up to the pump, adding 100-120gals of fuel, pulling forward, adding 1-5 gals of DEF, pulling up, using the restroom in coach and then leaving.

If I where to shut off engine at any of those steps, I would be adding 3 start/stop events. That is 3 times more likely for my sensors to give a false error (happens 1 out of 10 times for me), leaves open the possibility that I will break down in fuel lane, and also sends a clear signal to the truckers that I have no intention of hurrying.

Its bad enough when I put out the slides and bring out my lawn chair while fueling, don't need to add a shut off engine to further upset the guys

 

[Neemer]

UPDATE: Just received a call from Spartan. I'm getting a DEF Head! I have Brett Davis and Shaun Huxford of NIRVC to thank. They really took great efforts to look out for me and I am so very grateful. I feel like I can breathe again. ?

Awesome news!

 

[J&JD]

UPDATE: Just received a call from Spartan. I'm getting a DEF Head! I have Brett Davis and Shaun Huxford of NIRVC to thank. They really took great efforts to look out for me and I am so very grateful. I feel like I can breathe again. ?

@ARD , are they coming to you with the new head or do you need to make the trek to NIRV (Dallas?)?

 

[MapNerd]

This makes little sense to me. How would the engine know or care if you are adding fuel to the tank? You are adding to the top while it is drawing from the bottom if it is running. If not running it’s not drawing. Would love a logical explanation of why the engine should be running while fueling (except for DEF cycle situation being discussed).

Has nothing to do with fueling. My reason for keeping the engine running was precisely what @redbaron mentioned - short cycles of a diesel engine is not recommended. I should have been more specific to avoid confusion .

 

[MapNerd]

UPDATE: Just received a call from Spartan. I'm getting a DEF Head! I have Brett Davis and Shaun Huxford of NIRVC to thank. They really took great efforts to look out for me and I am so very grateful. I feel like I can breathe again. ?

So glad I bought from NIRVC. I’ve never needed em yet but if I ever do, I feel confident they’ll do the right thing. They always seem to

 

[J&JD]

Its bad enough when I put out the slides and bring out my lawn chair while fueling, don't need to add a shut off engine to further upset the guys

Now that I haven’t tried yet but sure would love to!

And I understand not having short engine start/stop cycles if you are getting codes or are worried about DEF head/sensor failure. Those would be good reasons for not cycling. However, there are virtually millions of heavy duty diesel vehicles out there that are constantly starting and stopping their engines all day/night long without serious consequences. Again, besides not wanting to block fuel lanes or having code problems I have never read in any manuals where it is recommended to leave your diesel running. In fact, I have read just the opposite that idling a diesel is hard on it.
Certainly not trying to be controversial, just trying to learn what truly is best practice.

 

[AbdRahim]

This is non-political - simply an observation. If we don’t start producing our own stuff. A war with China could be lost without any shots fired? Anyone awake over here?

 

[redbaron]

as little as we all drive these things...starting / stopping / idling is not going to affect long term.

I would never dream of a 1 hour idle. I don't mind idling for 15 min while fueling.

The "do not idle" talk in the manual is mandated by clean air acts. This is nothing about engine safety or durability. Starters wear out, but that won't happen on an RV. The most practical reason is code clearing, and it just feels right for me to not use the starter more often than required.

 

[J&JD]

as little as we all drive these things...starting / stopping / idling is not going to affect long term.

I would never dream of a 1 hour idle. I don't mind idling for 15 min while fueling.

The "do not idle" talk in the manual is mandated by clean air acts. This is nothing about engine safety or durability. Starters wear out, but that won't happen on an RV. The most practical reason is code clearing, and it just feels right for me to not use the starter more often than required.

In keeping with this thread, doesn’t excessive idling cause more regen cycles and wouldn’t that have possible adverse effects on the DEF head & sensors? Way out of my league here so I guess I better stop speculating. ??

 

[sheridany]

@AbdRahim in the spirit of continuing a non political thread, the horse may have already left the barn.....if you take into consideration the following known facts.

1. In terms of traditional outsourcing, 68% of US consumer product companies outsource some of their operations. Manufacturing companies outsource as much as 70–80% of their finished products.
2. China remains one of the most popular outsourcing destinations. With a predicted CAGR of 12.6% in the next five years, China’s BPO market volume will reach $28.5 billion by 2025 if the estimates are correct.

Yes, you are correct 100% but we have done it to ourselves I hate to say.

Back on topic.

 

[J&JD]

@AbdRahim in the spirit of continuing a non political thread, the horse may have already left the barn.....if you take into consideration the following known facts.

1. In terms of traditional outsourcing, 68% of US consumer product companies outsource some of their operations. Manufacturing companies outsource as much as 70–80% of their finished products.
2. China remains one of the most popular outsourcing destinations. With a predicted CAGR of 12.6% in the next five years, China’s BPO market volume will reach $28.5 billion by 2025 if the estimates are correct.

Yes, you are correct 100% but we have done it to ourselves I hate to say.

Back on topic.

We have often discussed this situation. I think many of us would gladly pay a few dollars more for products made in the USA. It really is a sad, and risky situation. Judy D

 

[redbaron]

In keeping with this thread, doesn’t excessive idling cause more regen cycles and wouldn’t that have possible adverse effects on the DEF head & sensors? Way out of my league here so I guess I better stop speculating. ??

I think that you are technically correct. I have never noticed a regen cycle, nor have I worried about it. From what I understand, Regen cycles don't hurt the def head or sensor. Those are hurt by either bad manufacturing, or bad DEF fluid. I have a refractometer (or whatever that thing is called) new in a box. I bought it after Dutchstar Don posted about it. Still never removed from the box, and probably never will.

I don't like to waste fuel, so at the point that idling becomes "excessive", I have already hit my limit of not wanting to waste fuel.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

On a slightly different tack, is there any validated data showing the actual frequency of DEF head failures? Since our coach is a 2018 (apparently near the epicenter of the problem), what are the odds that we’ll experience a problem? We have not had any DEF-related codes…yet. Our primary source of DEF is from the pump at T/A-Petro or Loves. And, like many others, we leave the engine idling when we refuel. Haven’t tried the slides and lawn chairs routine yet, though.

We were going to make one final run to Polson before selling the lot there (and the coach) but now I’m wondering if that is smart until a supply of DEF heads is once again available. There’s quite a stretch of I-90 in Idaho and Western Montana that is pretty short on cell coverage and/or decent places to park a coach alongside the road. With all the recent issues we’ve had, I really don’t need another major headache.

TJ