SCARY.......Lithium Battery Fires!!

[offroader09]

Neal you're spot on!!! Rates are already higher on EV KIA products due to fire risk. At this time I would not keep the fact you have lithium batteries as house batteries from your insurance company. When you tell them, they may want to know if your system is DIY, or professionally done. In this you did good!

Another comment made on chemical reaction causing the fire is bogus!!! The fire is electrical in nature, and as long as there is power, and heat to compromise the cells, it is impossible to put it out!!! The job of a fire crew is to keep water on the site until It has cooled down. We all know water does not react well with electricity, so we know they won't put it out, just control collateral damage.

One more thing! Lower risk doesn't mean no risk. I was shown videos of LTO batteries having holes drilled in them, many in fact!!! Then it happened! Low risk? Yes, no risk, no!!!

A lithium battery fire is classified as a Class B fire not Class C. If you ever need to try and put one out use a extinguisher with class B rating. Most are ABC rated.

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

Another comment made on chemical reaction causing the fire is bogus!!! The fire is electrical in nature, and as long as there is power, and heat to compromise the cells, it is impossible to put it out!!! The job of a fire crew is to keep water on the site until It has cooled down. We all know water does not react well with electricity, so we know they won't put it out, just control collateral damage.

One more thing! Lower risk doesn't mean no risk. I was shown videos of LTO batteries having holes drilled in them, many in fact!!! Then it happened! Low risk? Yes, no risk, no!!!

Heat has different impacts on the cells, depending on the chemistry. This is why some lithium battery types have “thermal runaway”, one cell exploding (due to the chemistry type changing size in a non-linear way as it discharges/charges) then causes the next cell to overheat and change size, discharge too fast, then damage the next cell…

Look at this from Wikipedia:
“As lithium migrates out of the cathode in a LiCoO2 cell, the CoO2 undergoes non-linear expansion that affects the structural integrity of the cell. The fully lithiated and unlithiated states of LiFePO4 are structurally similar which means that LiFePO4 cells are more structurally stable than LiCoO2 cells.[citation needed]

No lithium remains in the cathode of a fully charged LFP cell. In a LiCoO2 cell, approximately 50% remains. LiFePO4 is highly resilient during oxygen loss, which typically results in an exothermic reaction in other lithium cells.[18] As a result, LiFePO4 cells are harder to ignite in the event of mishandling (especially during charge). The LiFePO4 battery does not decompose at high temperatures.[32]”


The point is: one lithium chemistry battery type is not the same as another. When we see stories of runaway lithium batteries it is almost always one of the other battery chemistries (not LFeP).
Can LFeP batteries burn? Sure
Can lead acid batteries create hydrogen gas and cause an explosion? Sure
Can stored gasoline in a can explode? Sure

Lithium isn’t causing some uncontrollable big risk, anymore than gasoline is causing a risk. We need to understand the risk and how to mitigate the risk. I realize that sensationalism gets clicks/views and generates revenue. Just want people to realize that the LFeP batteries that may be in our RVs are not as dangerous as that video originally posted may lead some people to believe.
We all have our opinions and views, want to help alleviate unnecessary worrying and help educate on the very different lithium battery types and risk levels between these forms of energy storage.

 

[TheLooks]

"We all have our opinions and views, want to help alleviate unnecessary worrying and help educate on the very different lithium battery types and risk levels between these forms of energy storage."


Name the time a can of gasoline spontaneously exploded? Name the time a gas tank in a vehicle spontaneously exploded? Don't even bother to step around the question by talking about Pinto's and such. Gasoline can sit in a can until it isn't gasoline anymore and will not just decide to explode or combust. When is the last time you heard of a ship full of cars catching fire and sinking because the gas in the tanks just caught fire? To call videos of rechargeable batteries regardless of type exploding sensationalism is a huge deflection. Typical of the EV fans when discussing range, charge times, and charger availability. I have a can of gas, a car, a motorcycle, and a generator in my garage right now, along with other flammable liquids. None of them and I mean none, will start a fire on their own. They may accelerate one if something else catch's fire.....like my Makita and Milwaukee batteries or the battery tender on the Goldwing.

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

Agree that a gasoline can won’t spontaneously combust. It needs a heat source. I have been monitoring and continue to read and have yet to read about LFeP spontaneously combust. Other types of lithium batteries, yes.

The point is that there is a difference in types of lithium batteries - all types of lithium batteries do not carry the same risk.

The batteries that were on that ship were the higher risk type. Again, don’t want people to panic and think the LFeP in their RV is going to burn down tonight.

And to clarify, I don’t own an EV vehicle.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

A lithium battery fire is classified as a Class B fire not Class C. If you ever need to try and put one out use a extinguisher with class B rating. Most are ABC rated.

Take the time to research how the professionals manage lithium fires, I have.

 

[AbdRahim]

A great point Neal! Insurance companies need but a small excuse (reason) to raise premiums anymore!
I do know that I will not be buying a "Tesla", nor any other EV! Mainly because I'm too dang old!

Probably not old but too dang smart.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

I'm glad this hasn't run (completely) off the rails yet but battery chemistries make a big difference. The airline industry, being fairly risk averse, has prohibited multiple lithium battery containing toys and devices. I have a friend who's a section leader at BMW down the road, he shared with me pictures of their compromised battery containment unit, it looks like it's supposed to contain the energy of a detonating H bomb. I have an uncle who's an executive at Michelin tire, they're sitting on warehouses full of EV specific tires because they can't move them. There appears to be three reasons; 1) Range. 2) Price. 3) Safety. Range is what it is, it will work for some people's situations and it won't for others. The price, well, very little hasn't fallen victim to hyperinflation since 1/21. EV manufacturers tout lower production costs yet we see higher price tags for an EV vs. ICE vehicles so apparently the bean counters are channeling Gordon Gekko. Safety, safety is the wild card. While some EV manufacturers are offering longer charging cords to ensure people can charge their vehicle outside vs. in the garage, others are turning the battery's catastrophic failure vent into the cab instead of outside the vehicle. I know 100+ years ago, some thought it a good idea to route the vehicle's exhaust into the cab for heat, but they didn't know any better. It seems to me we should have evolved past the practice of venting anything dangerous into the cab of any vehicle (police interceptor Explorers notwithstanding). Battery technology will continue to evolve and become safer, hopefully being able to compete in the free market without subsidies or mandates but I'm not holding my breath on either of those.

 

[TheLooks]

Excellent post Bigblockyeti.

 

[Joe Hogan]

This battery space is not well or widely understood. Early in my career I worked at Duracell. Battery damage by leaking at that time was more common than fires but fires did happen. This is with relatively small D C and AA batteries .EV or household batteries with a different chemistry are a whole new level of risk.
When we installed solar and batteries at the house we went with a Trusted professional product and installer, Tesla. If there is a problem Tesla should stand behind installation.
Or at least there is a legal route to satisfy issues.

 

[Neal]

Anybody know what battery is in your phone?