Newmar not taking accountability? Passing the blame on quality to vendors?

[Neal]

I see a lot of recent model year Newmar's returning to the market, owners are not keeping them, they are tired of spending all of their travel time trying to resolve issues. I've talked to several to learn the pain they are going through on quality, warranty resolution, and just fearing their coach at every campground stop. I'm hearing Newmar is blaming quality on vendors, take for example the rash of fogged windows that are popping up. In 2019 it was Kwikee steps making headlines, now it's poor paint, woodwork, tile, grout, slide issues, KIB, silverleaf, the list goes on and on. The expected lifetime of your new Newmar coach is up until it drives off the dealers lot!

So let me say something to you, Newmar, YOU are the one that chooses your 3rd party components and vendors, therefore YOU are responsible for your decision to use their products and that they met some level of quality for your coaches. Your customers, us, are not seeing that level of expected quality and we are having a hard time supporting you as we did in the Miller era. It's time to stop, evaluate, and make change. You are headed for an ugly decline if this is not turned around soon. Many looking to buy a new coach are not confident in Newmar and are seeking other options.

 

[Neemer]

It doesn’t help that we owners tend to ride that train as well, making excuses for Newmar and pointing the finger at suppliers.

We wouldn’t do that with an automobile manuf.

 

[Stuart W]

add in Customer Service personnel with a license to mistreat owners and staff undertrained for their positions. An example of this, my KIB 10 inch display went bad and these displays are programmed based on the coach build. After waiting almost 2 months for a replacement display, meanwhile I had no access to my tank levels, heated floor, lighting and HVAC settings. Newmar sent the dealer a replacement display that was not programmed for heated floors or dinette lighting. My dealer called Newmar and the representative told him my coach didn’t have heated floors or dinette lighting! of course it does have both and Newmar has a build sheet to prove that. Long story short two 600 mile round trips to the dealer later the correct display was installed.
You may have noticed that I have removed all Newmar references from my profile and have a 2025 Entegra Cornerstone on order. I will continue to support my Newmar friends, All of you, in anyway I can
When it’s appropriate I will provide more details
Stuart W

 

[Neal]

Congrats @Stuart W as you are moving away from something you believed in for several purchases and a lot of money invested in the Newmar brand. It takes courage to break free of this hold and you are doing something that you need to do to ensure your joy of RVing returns. I look forward to hearing of your happy experiences ahead.

 

[Neal]

add in Customer Service personnel with a license to mistreat owners and staff undertrained for their positions

We've all seen companies where when you call in or interact you get a survey afterwards. It sounds like maybe Newmar needs to implement this so customers can provide feedback of their service when contacted.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

We've all seen companies where when you call in or interact you get a survey afterwards. It sounds like maybe Newmar needs to implement this so customers can provide feedback of their service when contacted.

Hummm! May only work if the surveys were made public so all employees were brought on board to keep their jobs!!!

 

[Stuart W]

Or are the CS representatives operating in a cost control mode?

 

[scottramer]

As a Honda dealer up until I retired a couple years ago it has always amazed me about these coach manufacturers. And it's not only Newmar that passed the buck along to the suppliers.

Any automobile manufacturer does not make all their parts, they have hundreds of third party suppliers. I could not imagine telling one of my Honda customers that it's not Honda's fault and it's a supplier and they cant fix it.

Newmar manufactured the coaches, spec'd out the parts and ultimately in any court of law they would be responsible under the terms of their warranty.

My 2019 London air was a nightmare for the first 18 months of ownership so much I had to make a 4,000 Mi round trip back to Nappanee because my dealer couldn't fix the full wall slide because of a manufacturing issue.

What perplexes me the most is that expense was on me, $2,600 in fuel plus campgrounds, plus I stayed in a hotel so they can have the coach full time for repairs. Total cost of my trip was almost $4,000 out of my pocket and nobody offered to compensate me for their mistakes.

Like Neemer said above, we as owners continue put up with and make excuses for the manufactures. It's sad but I'm sure nothing will change until we as owners hold them accountable and that may have to be throught some type of lemon law legislation at the states level or class action law suites.

 

[Rich W.]

This reminds me of the decline in quality of Dynamax when Forest River took over that brand. FR said at the time nothing would change and the same quality would continue. That lasted about three years. I’m sure Winnebago sees more profits to be had in many ways with the Newmar line up. Some are probably good for both Newmar coaches and Winnebago. Shortcuts in construction, lower quality components, and poor service after the sale are not among them and will only damage the Newmar reputation.

I’ve had my share of problems with my 2016 but I’ve never been held up waiting for repairs other than for two days over Thanksgiving a few years ago because the FL shop was closed. And that was for emissions which wasn’t Newmar‘s fault. I can’t imagine shouldering the cost of a new rig, especially with the radical price increases, only to have it sitting unusable for months at a time due to quality issues.

 

[Stuart W]

As a Honda dealer up until I retired a couple years ago it has always amazed me about these coach manufacturers. And it's not only Newmar that passed the buck along to the suppliers.

Any automobile manufacturer does not make all their parts, they have hundreds of third party suppliers. I could not imagine telling one of my Honda customers that it's not Honda's fault and it's a supplier and they cant fix it.

Newmar manufactured the coaches, spec'd out the parts and ultimately in any court of law they would be responsible under the terms of their warranty.

My 2019 London air was a nightmare for the first 18 months of ownership so much I had to make a 4,000 Mi round trip back to Nappanee because my dealer couldn't fix the full wall slide because of a manufacturing issue.

What perplexes me the most is that expense was on me, $2,600 in fuel plus campgrounds, plus I stayed in a hotel so they can have the coach full time for repairs. Total cost of my trip was almost $4,000 out of my pocket and nobody offered to compensate me for their mistakes.

Like Neemer said above, we as owners continue put up with and make excuses for the manufactures. It's sad but I'm sure nothing will change until we as owners hold them accountable and that may have to be throught some type of lemon law legislation at the states level or class action law suites.

Scott I spent over 35 years in the new car dealership world as a master technician and parts and service director, I totally agree with you, not once did I avoide a beating by saying to a customer that it’s the parts venders fault. What I learned is it was almost always do to the manufacturer providing an inadequate specification or changing vendors to save money on the part to reduce cost. In the Automotive world your Customer Satisfaction Ratings are what a dealer lives by, pay plans for dealer personnel are based on it, failure of a dealer to have compliant CSI could cost the dealer it’s franchise. With the exception of NIRVC and Brett Davis are the only company to pay attention to after the sale Customer satisfaction. Those that know Brett know that he agrees the system isn’t perfect. What he dose do different is analyze the data and adjust processes accordingly to improve customer satisfaction outcomes. He is also not afraid to let the manufacturers know about needed areas of improvement.
Although not perfect companies like JD Powers did hold the automotive world more accountable. The RV world needs a JD powers type accountability.

 

[Jim]

add in Customer Service personnel with a license to mistreat owners and staff undertrained for their positions. An example of this, my KIB 10 inch display went bad and these displays are programmed based on the coach build. After waiting almost 2 months for a replacement display, meanwhile I had no access to my tank levels, heated floor, lighting and HVAC settings. Newmar sent the dealer a replacement display that was not programmed for heated floors or dinette lighting. My dealer called Newmar and the representative told him my coach didn’t have heated floors or dinette lighting! of course it does have both and Newmar has a build sheet to prove that. Long story short two 600 mile round trips to the dealer later the correct display was installed.
You may have noticed that I have removed all Newmar references from my profile and have a 2025 Entegra Cornerstone on order. I will continue to support my Newmar friends, All of you, in anyway I can
When it’s appropriate I will provide more details
Stuart W

A perfect example of how to destroy your client base. And congratulations to you (Stuart) on the purchase of your new coach!

 

[Kevin D Pem]

An outsider like me, has watched the foolishness talked about on this forum, for some time! I have been wondering when the customers would come to see that they can't protect their investment by covering for the manufacturer! And yes it has been very obvious!!!

 

[Neal]

Here is a problem most haven't thought of. Per Brett (NIRVC) the average ownership duration is 4.3 years. Imagine you make a choice, like me, to keep your coach for the duration. What happens 10-15 years down the road with your "fancy Newmar tech" (nothing fancy in today's era) such as KIB or SilverLeaf when it quits working? The same thing is occurring to the SilverLeaf predecessor EPLEX. Is Newmar able to support the tech they offer today, 20 to 30 years down the road? @DavidL is probably experiencing some of this in his renovation project.

 

[scottramer]

Scott I spent over 35 years in the new car dealership world as a master technician and parts and service director, I totally agree with you, not once did I avoide a beating by saying to a customer that it’s the parts venders fault. What I learned is it was almost always do to the manufacturer providing an inadequate specification or changing vendors to save money on the part to reduce cost. In the Automotive world your Customer Satisfaction Ratings are what a dealer lives by, pay plans for dealer personnel are based on it, failure of a dealer to have compliant CSI could cost the dealer it’s franchise. With the exception of NIRVC and Brett Davis are the only company to pay attention to after the sale Customer satisfaction. Those that know Brett know that he agrees the system isn’t perfect. What he dose do different is analyze the data and adjust processes accordingly to improve customer satisfaction outcomes. He is also not afraid to let the manufacturers know about needed areas of improvement.
Although not perfect companies like JD Powers did hold the automotive world more accountable. The RV world needs a JD powers type accountability.

Stuart, I totally agree. I was in the car business for 44 year and with the exception of the last 15 years I was on the service managment side. As a ASE certified master tech and former field service engineer for GM I know just about enough enough to be dangerous on my coach. LOL. I bought my coach new from NIRVC in Vegas, and yes they are not perfect, but when there has been a problem they have always steped up to resolve. I have to say, RV dealers are faced with a huge staffing challenge but I think that is where NIRVC stands out in the effort to make it right when something is wrong.

 

[Kevin D Pem]

Here is a problem most haven't thought of. Per Brett (NIRVC) the average ownership duration is 4.3 years. Imagine you make a choice, like me, to keep your coach for the duration. What happens 10-15 years down the road with your "fancy Newmar tech" (nothing fancy in today's era) such as KIB or SilverLeaf when it quits working? The same thing is occurring to the SilverLeaf predecessor EPLEX. Is Newmar able to support the tech they offer today, 20 to 30 years down the road? @DavidL is probably experiencing some of this in his renovation project.

No worries mate!!!
It could be! But my experience has been company doors that get shuttered, don't tend to destroy aftermarket solutions.
Better in this product line, is Newmar sending it's customer base to the source of the products, rather than claim proprietary rights.

I had machinery in my fab shop, that the manufacturer was long gone! Because the manufacturer claimed proprietary rights, many pieces of machinery parts were impossible to get. This didn't stop me, I just retrofit more modern electronics to fix the issues, and greatly extended their life.

Those innovative RV techs that make things work are positioned to make a bunch of money when certain manufacturers that don't take care of their base go the way of past greats like Silverline and Alpinelite. The company will be gone but the value won't be lost!!!

For the record I dusted off my Chrystal ball for my prediction!

 

[Stuart W]

Stuart, I totally agree. I was in the car business for 44 year and with the exception of the last 15 years I was on the service managment side. As a ASE certified master tech and former field service engineer for GM I know just about enough enough to be dangerous on my coach. LOL. I bought my coach new from NIRVC in Vegas, and yes they are not perfect, but when there has been a problem they have always steped up to resolve. I have to say, RV dealers are faced with a huge staffing challenge but I think that is where NIRVC stands out in the effort to make it right when something is wrong.

Scott I see that you have a 2019 Newmar, in my opinion that was the last of the true Miller Newmar’s. It was a different time, sure the Miller’s cared about making money, but it was also their personal reputations on the line, they surrounded themselves with employees that were like family. You may notice that almost all of those employees are gone now.

 

[Underboss]

Having owned a 19 and a 21 Newmar with basically no issues. I do not believe there is a difference in quality between a 2015 newmar and a 2020 and up.
Having owned eight rvs I rarely had too serious an issue myself. That could be because I try to fix or do preventative maintenance and I accept that they are rolling earthquakes and stuff will happen.
If you truly read most of the issues the last few years, most can be attributed to operator error. I see complaints about the simplest things. Literally one person complained because they had no idea how to tighten a tp holder, a residential one, and four responders said, Newmar quality has gone down, really! I think the majority of buyers years ago were more of a hands on type. Also, remember today we have a multitude of forums, facebook and other groups. Back then we did not. Nowadays I notice people cross post the same question on a few forums and a few fb pages. Those actions seem to falsely multiply the idea of numerous problems.
Then when they post, they get a large number of answers that are blatantly wrong. Which adds to the mystique that there are a major number of issues. And the fact that many owners a not handy.
How many times have you had an issue only to find out you were not operating it correctly? It happens, we are all guilty of this to some degree.
Are there issues, yes but I do not believe there are any more then ten years ago, its just now that there are more places to post, hence more places to see the same complaint with different poster names.

 

[MarkMaxPayne]

A few of the examples of how design and build vs tossing suppliers under the bus is perhaps the real story...

Since purchasing my 2023 Newmar New Aire I have had 4 of my automatic day shades "forget" their limits in less than a year. Should they? Probably not, but I wouldn't mind if there was access provided to adjust their limit screws. Sure Newmar provides the plastic tool for making adjustments in a drawer, but when you mount the shades, adjust them, and THEN build the cabinetry around them blocking access to the adjustment screws... Ugh! Now, instead of making the adjustments myself I have to schedule time with the dealer's service department to burn warranty hours and $ for something that should have been easily solved by mounting the shades at the correct angle (with the adjustment screws facing downwards vs sideways) or with removable inside interior cabinet wall panels for access.

Another example? Don't install the absolute cheapest solar controller possible that only handles lead acid and nicad batteries and then factory option Lithium batteries. Of course that bargain basement solar controller isn't going to charge those batteries. But this went on for well over a year of rigs going out the door. Now Newmar is eating the cost of the service bulletin and replacements on how many rigs?

Ceiling vent panels falling because the magnets in the wooden frame come unglued and out of the pocket holes drilled for them? Use magnets that screw into the wooden panels instead...

Tile grout cracking within months of purchase?

Nav constantly losing GPS signal?

Docking lights wiring shorting out due to side body panel pinching the wires as it was being installed?

Silerleaf not able to update WiFi connection due to old beta firmware being loaded vs latest released software version?

Don't get me wrong, I love my New Aire, but in my rig's case these all seem to point to gaps during fabrication vs the individual vendor parts. The Dometic Toilet no water during flush switch issue is the only one I can think of that was on the supplier...

Best,
-Mark

 

[Neemer]

The mention of navigation brings up a sore spot with me.

When my ‘21 was built, the RM nav system was installed. Somewhere about the time I showed up for FPU, it was announced that RM was ejecting the RV business. Did Newmar and Riverpark know that was coming? They had to, but they kept installing it anyway.

That still fries my bacon every time I think about it.

Maybe I should quit thinking about it.

 

[Joe Hogan]

Let me chime in here, after working with Newmar on CPU, and NIRVC service in Atlanta, these are very complicated machines and Service does vary by tech.
Newmar has always stepped up when I’ve had an issue. Yes it takes time and perseverance to get some things done but they get done.
For instance, I had a BIRD issue. Went to Tampa RV Show because I knew my Service Team from Nappanee would be there, Jonas and Perry.
They fixed the BIRD issue and John from KIB was there to verify the BIRD programming and other KIB systems were programmed correctly. Covered by warranty.

Typically I go to Nappanee for service and know the quality of the work.

Found that most dealers need several visits/trips to get whatever service correct. And most ask you to leave the RV. Typically not something I do willingly.

NIRVC, Atlanta allows you to camp on site currently. However the place is extremely busy and can be costly.
Managing logistics there is very difficult. Some “Campers” had been at dealership for weeks. And NIRVC has 200 RVs parked waiting for service.

The new President of Newmar is working with Customers face to face at Rallys to determine problems. He is also demanding senior management to use the product and know the customer first hand. Hopeful signs.

Has the time of Private/Family Ownership of RV mfg passed, maybe. And the Class A market is in decline now. I expect the Class A mfg pool will shrink.
The commercial end, Prevost, will continue for a while with custom coaches. Low volume, high dollar units will be in demand for customers who want a coach for business traveling and those that want custom equipment.

Unfortunately it is not Miller Time at Newmar any longer.