2019 Tahoe Towing Guidance

[baare657]

This has been a very good learning experience for me. Thanks everyone for sharing. I'll try my best to summarize:
Just considering GCWR/GVWR, this experiment has a result far too close to the maximums for parts stress and maintenance.
When considering towing capacity, I need to pay attention to other specs, such as axle ratio, and combine them in my decision to haul/what to haul. This axle ratio is not designed for hauling, more for daily driving.
Even if I arrive within the 80% margin, i need to understand the duty cycle (heating up vs cooling down periods to maintain serviceability) and keep an eye on various gauges to understand when/if i'm approaching the edge of the duty cycle (ready for a cooldown period).

One more thing that popped up is the effect wheel base and trailer length have on stability. Brake controller, weight distribution hitch and sway control seem to be a must. Do you factor in the wheelbase in selecting a trailer length?

I understand this is an RV thread, so i'll try to stay away from towing vehicle specifics (or maybe that can be covered here).
Do any of you have any opinion on aftermarket parts, for example:

• Brake controller
• Axle oil cooling

I don't like adding or changing things to deviate from the factory designed and extensively tested technical specs, but I don't know how invasive that is, nor the downstream effects.

Thanks everyone for sharing, I really appreciate it.

 

["EZ"]

baare657,
I suggest you go here and read this very informative article about towing trailers. Click here: Towing, Payload, & GCVWR: What's It All Mean? | Top Speed

Here is a quote from the article:
"The first thing to understand is truckmakers publish the absolute maximum a truck can pull when its equipped just so with the correct powertrain options, suspension setups, and towing packages. Drop by a local dealership and pick a random truck off the lot and it’s highly likely it won’t be equipped to handle the advertised trailer weight.

What’s more, even with a truck that’s actually equipped with all the right gear for maximum towing, there are still aftermarket parts like weight-distribution hitches and anti-sway bars needed to properly – and safely – handle heavy loads.

Take for example, Ram’s latest claim that its 3500-series truck can pull 31,210 pounds. You’ll need to look at the fine print to see that tow rating is only for a bed-mounted fifth-wheel or gooseneck hitch and requires the dual-rear-wheel package, a 4.10 axle ratio, and the high-output version of the Cummins inline-six turbodiesel mated to the Aisin automatic transmission. Picky picky

But that’s only the beginning. There’s a heap of other things to consider before dropping a trailer onto your truck’s ball or loading cargo into its bed."

I hope this helps you make the right decision for your needs. PLEASE don't take the opinion of people on the internet as gospel. There is a lot of misinformation floating around that could cause you great harm or cost you a great deal of money to correct after the fact. Do your homework and make sure your truck has the equipment necessary to pull the size trailer you intend to buy including all the extra stuff you intend to carry with you. Good luck!

 

[Al_Bear]

Hi Baare,
It looks like you would be at 99% of GCWR, or 96% if you don't bring your own water. If you decided to add even a little more gear, you would be over, for example, a screen house or bicycles. I don't totally agree with the 80% rule, but 99% seems too close to the max in any case.

As an alternative, you might consider a 21' fiberglass trailer, such as an Escape 21. Less roomy feeling inside, but lots lighter and more aerodynamic.

Here are some comments on your excellent spreadsheet, by cell. Some of this comments would be relevant not matter what you decide to do.

A14: Tongue weights on TT's often exceed 10%. Depends on where the fresh water tank is and where you place stuff that's heavy. A better guess would be 12%, of total trailer weight.

A19 to A24: You even consider the axle weight limits. Bravo! Not even close to being a problem, but it's good to be sure.

D30: You would be double-dipping if you added tongue weight here. Since you are comparing to GCWR, it does not matter where tongue weight gets included. In your approach, it's included in UVR + Trailer actual payload (A31+A32). Sometimes people will weigh a TT that is hitched to a TV with only the TT axles on the scales, thereby excluding tongue weight. Maybe that's why they needed to add it back in when they did the video that you saw.

N30 and N32: Curt makes a WDH with a built-in anti-sway feature. It uses a cam and ball bearing rather than friction. You don't need to detach it to back up, and it doesn't overheat on twisty roads because it does not work by friction. I think it's called the TruTrack series.

N33 and N36: If your WDH is adjusted properly, there will be some rear-end sag, but not too much. You should not need air bags or similar. Sag is not bad in itself, as long as the TT ends up pretty much level. Air bags do change the distribution of weight but only by a little.

N35: Modern SUV's and trucks already come with trans fluid cooling. That's already taken into account in the GCWR.

 

[baare657]

baare657,
I suggest you go here and read this very informative article about towing trailers. Click here: Towing, Payload, & GCVWR: What's It All Mean? | Top Speed

Here is a quote from the article:
"The first thing to understand is truckmakers publish the absolute maximum a truck can pull when its equipped just so with the correct powertrain options, suspension setups, and towing packages. Drop by a local dealership and pick a random truck off the lot and it’s highly likely it won’t be equipped to handle the advertised trailer weight.

What’s more, even with a truck that’s actually equipped with all the right gear for maximum towing, there are still aftermarket parts like weight-distribution hitches and anti-sway bars needed to properly – and safely – handle heavy loads.

Take for example, Ram’s latest claim that its 3500-series truck can pull 31,210 pounds. You’ll need to look at the fine print to see that tow rating is only for a bed-mounted fifth-wheel or gooseneck hitch and requires the dual-rear-wheel package, a 4.10 axle ratio, and the high-output version of the Cummins inline-six turbodiesel mated to the Aisin automatic transmission. Picky picky

But that’s only the beginning. There’s a heap of other things to consider before dropping a trailer onto your truck’s ball or loading cargo into its bed."

I hope this helps you make the right decision for your needs. PLEASE don't take the opinion of people on the internet as gospel. There is a lot of misinformation floating around that could cause you great harm or cost you a great deal of money to correct after the fact. Do your homework and make sure your truck has the equipment necessary to pull the size trailer you intend to buy including all the extra stuff you intend to carry with you. Good luck!

EZ,
In my limited experience, and watching those far wiser then I'll ever be, I've learned never to take any advice (free or paid), "expert analysis" or friendly suggestions as Ex cathedra. Ultimately, I'm responsible for the safety and well being of my family, and so I verify and bumble through any specs or claims with that in mind. Thanks for reinforcing that with your.... well, something similar to empathy, but in relation to safety and well being. Once I pick some contenders I'll update the spreadsheet and add to the thread, all you smarter fellas can comment and newer folks can learn from my mistakes.

 

[baare657]

Hi Baare,
It looks like you would be at 99% of GCWR, or 96% if you don't bring your own water. If you decided to add even a little more gear, you would be over, for example, a screen house or bicycles. I don't totally agree with the 80% rule, but 99% seems too close to the max in any case.

As an alternative, you might consider a 21' fiberglass trailer, such as an Escape 21. Less roomy feeling inside, but lots lighter and more aerodynamic.

Here are some comments on your excellent spreadsheet, by cell. Some of this comments would be relevant not matter what you decide to do.

A14: Tongue weights on TT's often exceed 10%. Depends on where the fresh water tank is and where you place stuff that's heavy. A better guess would be 12%, of total trailer weight.

A19 to A24: You even consider the axle weight limits. Bravo! Not even close to being a problem, but it's good to be sure.

D30: You would be double-dipping if you added tongue weight here. Since you are comparing to GCWR, it does not matter where tongue weight gets included. In your approach, it's included in UVR + Trailer actual payload (A31+A32). Sometimes people will weigh a TT that is hitched to a TV with only the TT axles on the scales, thereby excluding tongue weight. Maybe that's why they needed to add it back in when they did the video that you saw.

N30 and N32: Curt makes a WDH with a built-in anti-sway feature. It uses a cam and ball bearing rather than friction. You don't need to detach it to back up, and it doesn't overheat on twisty roads because it does not work by friction. I think it's called the TruTrack series.

N33 and N36: If your WDH is adjusted properly, there will be some rear-end sag, but not too much. You should not need air bags or similar. Sag is not bad in itself, as long as the TT ends up pretty much level. Air bags do change the distribution of weight but only by a little.

N35: Modern SUV's and trucks already come with trans fluid cooling. That's already taken into account in the GCWR.

AI_Bear,
Roger, updating the spreadsheet now. I agree and don't intend to choose anything close to the max limits of my equipment.

I'll bring the fiberglass trailers to the wife's attention. My guess is she will want a bunkhouse for the kids to sleep in. I'll discuss it with her and come up with my minimum specs. If we need a new vehicle, we'll just budget it and hold off on the experience for a while longer.

Updating my minimum equipment for the purposes of towing:

• Brake controller
• WDH
• anti-sway bars (i'll check the Curt you suggested)
• Mirrors for trailering
• rear camera (?)

I don't plan to purchase any time soon, but I think the plan will be:

1. find something that meets the towing specification + a decent margin
2. Load to, what I believe to be, maximum we would need on a trip and weigh on scale (Family, clothes, food, everything)
3. Practice and experiment with the handling on the local roads here in NC (we have some fair hills and highways)

As far as the camper experience, it's not something I don't have any experience with. Where I grew up, we would walk outside and say "lets set up camp on that mountain", gear up and hike there. I'm certain my kids will love it, but will need to see how the family works as a group. I wonder if this is an opportunity to RENT and try it out first to get a family consensus. I'll search through the threads here and start a discussion on the topic if I cannot find anything.

If I run into you folks out and about in the future, I'll get you a drink or a cigar (or pack your pipe for you, whichever you prefer).
Good discussion so far, thank you so much for your time,
-Matt

 

["EZ"]

EZ,
In my limited experience, and watching those far wiser then I'll ever be, I've learned never to take any advice (free or paid), "expert analysis" or friendly suggestions as Ex cathedra. Ultimately, I'm responsible for the safety and well being of my family, and so I verify and bumble through any specs or claims with that in mind. Thanks for reinforcing that with your.... well, something similar to empathy, but in relation to safety and well being. Once I pick some contenders I'll update the spreadsheet and add to the thread, all you smarter fellas can comment and newer folks can learn from my mistakes.

My biggest point I guess was that you really have to do your own research, like you said. Unfortunately you have to buy trucks to tow your RV from a CAR dealership. Most of the CAR salesmen don't know what they are talking about when it comes to the larger 2500/3500/4500/5500 trucks because they haven't been trained BUT they are allowed to sell them.

I was a Commercial Truck Manager at a dealership in Chattanooga and saw it first hand. The CAR Sales Managers didn't get paid on what I sold but they got paid on everything the CAR salesmen sold. So, when YOU would wander in to buy a new Ram 3500 diesel to pull your new 41' 5th wheel RV do you think they came to get the Commercial Truck Manager that had actually been trained and had spend 25 years selling trucks to help the TRUCK customer??? Heck no!! The Car Sales Manager wanted to get paid so he sent one of his CAR salesmen out to greet you and fake his way through all your questions pertaining to towing.

This same CAR Sales Manager is also the one ORDERING the trucks at most delaerships. He doesn't understand everything he needs to know to order the right packages to get the max towing that Ram is claiming on TV. That's why the article I referenced said that if you just pick any random truck on the lot chances are it isn't spec'd properly for the ratings on the door for towing. It's the same at Ford and Chevy too so don't think it's only the Ram dealers. If you add to this the well intentioned "advice" from the internet you really do have to be careful or you'll spend a lot of hard earned money on a truck that won't do the job or will barely do the job but be unsafe doing it.

Arm yourself with data from the MANUFACTURER. Ram has a great tool where you can build the right truck for your application. You can then print out the spec's and take them to the dealer to compare to what he has on the lot or to use to order what you want. I highly recommend using this tool so you can bypass all the CAR Salesmen BS at the dealership. Check it out here.......Build & Price Your New Ram Vehicle | Ram (ramtrucks.com)

Let me know if I can help. I actually left the CAR dealershipforthe reasons I stated above (and others) and went to work for a Ram Commercial Truck bailment pool and body company in Atlanta. I sell the commercial trucks TO THE RAM DEALERSHIPS all over the Southeast now. I spec the trucks out properly for the application and provide the bodies for the larger chassis up to 5500. I order the trucks so they don't have to. This way they are spec'd properly whether it's a dump truck or a service body truck. A large portion of what we sell are trucks for gooseneck and 5th wheel towing. Unfortunately it's not the pickup trucks that most RV owners need for towing their RV's. Those are still ordered by the Car Sales Manager who knows very little about truck towing. He's more concerned about making sure it has the 12" screened radio and the heated seats. lol.

 

[baare657]

EZ,
That is some really good experience and wisdom.
My wife and I came up with what we believe to be our minimum specifications and have been visiting RV dealerships and eyeballing some trailers that measure under 4K pounds onsite. We came up with a plan for the next 5-10 years, all subject to market forces, health etc.

Its pretty amazing. As all of you have stated, they tried to upscale my towing capacity, stating i should be looking at dry weights between 4500 to 5500 lbs. One swore up and down (unprompted) that he used to spec commercial vehicles for towing, and swore on his brontosaurus ancestry that i could tow more then the manufacturer's specifications.
We were polite and declined all offers and viewed RV's we had hand picked before arriving.

Reading the experiences on these threads make 5th wheel camping very appealing. We'll be budgeting for a F250 (minimum) to replace my 99 F150 that i love so much and is so beautiful in its own way. If there is a better reason to go with Chevy, dodge, whatever, let me know if i need to start another thread or search through the available forums.

Walk, crawl, run:
1. rent a couple times, small bunk houses, in some local parks.
2. Start with a small Bunkhouse, keeping trips within 300 miles, and no plans for the mountains.
3. Larger truck, start venturing into the mountains of NC and WV
4. 5th wheel, maybe

I'm glad I sourced the forum for information. It seems the RVing community is very strong and close knit.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

Its pretty amazing. As all of you have stated, they tried to upscale my towing capacity, stating i should be looking at dry weights between 4500 to 5500 lbs. One swore up and down (unprompted) that he used to spec commercial vehicles for towing, and swore on his brontosaurus ancestry that i could tow more then the manufacturer's specifications.
We were polite and declined all offers and viewed RV's we had hand picked before arriving.

With your savvy approach, you will do fine! Do your homework, use common sense and don't let a salesman make a sale by glossing over the inconvenient facts.

TJ

 

[Lunge motorsport]

So...I am relatively new to this site but like what I am seeing here. I don't need to add anything to the knowledge posted here as it was well covered by several members. The reason for my comment now is that I want to remark that I appreciate the sharing of opinions and the intent to educate that is pervasive on this forum. Disagreement is beneficial but truth in numbers is undeniable. I am a member of several forums, all having something to do with RV's and tow vehicles. Many of the forums have their "Good Old Boys Club" that are legends in their own minds. I have had several disagreements with the members of other forums as they attempt to sway opinion based on opinions and false understandings. Some even have the title "The Man" in their signature to symbolize their perceived authoritarian view point. This particular individual cites NHTSA improperly to aid his argument and influence the members.
I am a builder of things, particularly automotive related. I appreciate someone who will take a product and as an end user, modify it to increase it's safety and comfort. I spend a lot of time and money on my projects to achieve those results. As an example, I own a 5th wheel that no longer has 4400# leaf spring axles and dumb brakes, but now has 7000# torsion axles and huge hydraulic vented disc brakes with large 4 piston calipers. According to "The Man", I am in violation of several written Gov. mandates that require certifications. Aaarrrgggghhhhh!
My advice here...Buy bigger, longer, and heavier tow vehicle than you believe will accommodate the specific trailer you are currently considering. You will most likely upgrade to a larger RV in the future. Do not consider a 3/4 ton vehicle if you want a diesel power plant, you will run out of payload long before you run out of max trailer towing ability.
Finally, good on ya EZ for bringing it home...
Cheers

 

["EZ"]

Finally, good on ya EZ for bringing it home...
Cheers

Just trying to help educate people that don't understand what they need to be able to tow what they want as a camper. Let me know if you have any technical questions. If I don't know the answer I'll look them up in one of my resource books. I have a lot of data at my disposal. Sure was glad to hear that you put bigger brakes on your camper and not just bigger axles and heavier suspension. Some of these people on RV forums scare me at their lack of knowledge and their unwillingness to listen to reason. I realize that buying the CORRECT truck is not the cheapest way out but you're going to have your FAMILY in there. It's obvious that money is more important than their kids well being. There are actually some of these idiots that BRAG about how small their truck is compared to how large their camper is!!! And of course they always say that their S-10 tows their 45' Grand Design just fine!!