DEF Head Failure

[Neal]

Entegra Coach® - Spartan RV Chassis

mailchi.mp

"We take pride in customer service" - except for the occasion we tell you break down, you pay $5K for your tow, if you survive the heat and not get killed on the side of the road or get your coach damaged from an improper tow, then call us for your reward - your DEF head replacement and a milkbone cookie.

 

[redbaron]

just wait until the Onan Generators are required to use DEF---then we will have lots of fun.

 

[Neal]

2017 Newmar Ventana with non DEF GEN on FL - $1,275,989 (HWH Active Air included at no extra charge)

 

[ARD]

Is it true most of these events are happening primarily on the Spartan chassis?

There are certainly a lot of Spartan cases; however, FL is not exempt. There are plenty of DEF header issues over there as well. Was just reading today that def headers are on backorder at FL.

Someone at the Entegra Forum at the other place wrote the attached PDF that summarizes the issues very well in my opinion with regards to the DEF head issues manufactured by Shaw Development.

 

[ARD]

just wait until the Onan Generators are required to use DEF---then we will have lots of fun.

Not sure if I should laugh or cry.

 

[turbopilot]

There are certainly a lot of Spartan cases; however, FL is not exempt. There are plenty of DEF header issues over there as well. Was just reading today that def headers are on backorder at FL.

Someone at the Entegra Forum at the other place wrote the attached PDF that summarizes the issues very well in my opinion with regards to the DEF head issues manufactured by Shaw Development.

Great write up. Hundreds of post boiled down to a few pages. This whole DEF mess is brought to you by the State of California that pushed very hard on the US EPA between 2000 and 2010. To derate a vehicle because of the potential of some NOx emissions is insane. The safety issues created far surpass any impact on environmental quality. There simply has to be a better way to make sure that malfunctioning pollution control equipment is fixed in a timely manner.

 

[jagpot]

I had interesting situation (warning) recently going from Southern California to Utah. After reaching the top of the long uphill grade out of Baker, with outside temperatures 108*, I got “low DEF concentration” message. Engine continued normally as I preceded to north Las Vegas for my planned fuel stop which was one exit north of NIRVC. Plan was fuel, top off DEF and call NIRVC or Spartan and ask if I should continue or get a diagnosis. I did not shutdown during fueling and added approximately 4gal of DEF.

Low and behold “low DEF concentration” warning went out. I decided there was no benefit looking for a diagnosis since I no longer had a fault. I have only traveled approx 200 miles with no faults. I am thinking that DEF fluid temperature may have something to due with the fault, adding fluid at the fuel stop may have reduced the fluid temp in the tank.

Had the same problem also with audible alarm coming home from Vegas NIRVC 2 weeks ago. It has been at Cummins LA ever since. They have replaced a DEF sensor and are looking for the Inactive DEF code. They are conversing with Spartan. The fluid in the tank was half full when we got the error. Spartan says my year coach does not have the DEF head problems.20q7 and above.

 

[Neal]

Concur, it is a good article with the most important paragraph to me being:

Impact of the Current Situation

While not every DEF head assembly failure has resulted in a large motorhome stopped in a dangerous location, some have. Until this problem is solved there will be more. As implied earlier, a motorhome stopped in an unsafe area could easily result in a multi-vehicle crash, serious injuries, or even fatalities.

Other impacts, while less serious than major injuries or loss of life, include owner uncertainty regarding the advisability of embarking on planned trips; lost revenue to RV parks, State & National Parks, restaurants, entertainment venues and other travel-related businesses when owners cancel trips or choose to stay home; and lost confidence in the relevant recreational vehicle brand names, potentially affecting future sales and employment at those companies.

Also worth mentioning is that a growing number of motorhome owners are “full-timers,” meaning their motorhome is their home. Some of those full-timers are relatively young and use their motorhomes for work-related travel, home schooling, and seasonal employment. A DEF head assembly failure with no replacement part available for an extended period of time would be particularly problematic for those individuals and families.

It raises a huge red flag to me when a company advises people to drive until failure and get towed and then you'll get the part to fix your situation. This is a huge safety risk and probably a liability for any company to offer this guidance to their customers. It can also be a tremendously costly situation to the motorhome owner and this guidance is terrible in many ways.

 

[J&JD]

Obviously many of us have our own ideas on how to keep the DEF system working correctly. Many of them are good common sense ideas. However, none of these ideas are scientifically proven and without full input from those that engineered the systems and are working (we hope) to fix the problem, they are nothing more than unproven ideas. Why, why, why aren’t those responsible for these DEF head failures keeping us informed on what is happening and best practices going forward to avoid the derate situation???

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

Obviously many of us have our own ideas on how to keep the DEF system working correctly. Many of them are good common sense ideas. However, none of these ideas are scientifically proven and without full input from those that engineered the systems and are working (we hope) to fix the problem, they are nothing more than unproven ideas. Why, why, why aren’t those responsible for these DEF head failures keeping us informed on what is happening and best practices going forward to avoid the derate situation???

Why? Because it might cost money to fix the problem and that can cut into corporate profits; something the bean-counters don’t like. I’m thinking that when a class-action suit is filed on behalf of Spartan-chassis motorhome owners, the bean-counters may find their cheap way out may be pretty expensive. Very expensive!!!

We’ve filed a complaint with NHTSA on this and I encourage others to do the same. “Drive it until it dies” is not the appropriate response to a potentially life-threatening part failure.

TJ

 

[ARD]

Why? Because it might cost money to fix the problem and that can cut into corporate profits; something the bean-counters don’t like. I’m thinking that when a class-action suit is filed on behalf of Spartan-chassis motorhome owners, the bean-counters may find their cheap way out may be pretty expensive. Very expensive!!!

We’ve filed a complaint with NHTSA on this and I encourage others to do the same. “Drive it until it dies” is not the appropriate response to a potentially life-threatening part failure.

TJ

Actually, I have under good authority that they (Cummins, Spartan and others) have and are working quite hard to solve this issue.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

Actually, I have under good authority that they (Cummins, Spartan and others) have and are working quite hard to solve this issue.

With all due respect, “working quite hard to solve this issue” and “drive it until it quits before you get a replacement part” are mutually exclusive.

I don’t mean to be terse, but this issue is one of the reasons our coach is parked for the duration. LadyDi and I have little desire to drive a 26-ton ticking time bomb.

TJ

 

[ARD]

With all due respect, “working quite hard to solve this issue” and “drive it until it quits before you get a replacement part” are mutually exclusive.

I don’t mean to be terse, but this issue is one of the reasons our coach is parked for the duration. LadyDi and I have little desire to drive a 26-ton ticking time bomb.

TJ

Well, that is your choice. As someone that is actually dealing with the issue, I would not cancel my trips on a "what if." As always, wishing ya'll well.

 

[flyboy013]

We’ll, I have an 8K mile trip planned starting next month. Hoping for the best. Hopefully Spartan will have spare before we have another DEF head failure. Better yet, hopefully we won’t have another failure.

 

[ARD]

We’ll, I have an 8K mile trip planned starting next month. Hoping for the best. Hopefully Spartan will have spare before we have another DEF head failure. Better yet, hopefully we won’t have another failure.

Spartan got a shipment today, but I don't know how many or if only for people on waiting list. Hopefully, you will have no issues. Safe travels. Look forward to running into you and Kathleen in the near future. ?

 

[Old-RV'er]

All - Interesting all the different "solutions and procedures" I think going to list known facts so we see a little perspective. Sorry to be long winded.
1. Spartan Chassis seem to have the DEF Head Problem more so than Freightliner based units.
2. Overseas Chip Problem supply seems to be reason parts not available. See "Chip Comments at the bottom.
3. It also seems spartan is not totally "on top of this problem" with different recommended process and or procedures to get to destination, et-al.
4. No idea when new DEF units available to repair broken MH's currently experiencing issues.

Owners of MH's and Diesel DEF Equipped Pickups are reporting that keeping DEF tank full seems to alleviate the problem some. Using clean fresh DEF Fluid is paramount. Some difference of opinion on Fuel Island DEF and getting the 2.5 gallon jugs, and don't remember seeing anyone specifically comment on one format or the other on which they used and if issue was from that source. I am assuming the quality of the DEF is not causing this issue, but an actual failure of the head unit itself because of either faulty engineering/design, note assuming!

Now that I know Freightliner has not had the issues as often I am relieved, and to be honest, we have only got 15,000 miles on our unit. Between taking care of house, and COVID all last year, and now some Doctor appts might not get a lot of use this summer. Regardless, I personally fill the DEF tank not every stop, but at least the stop before we are heading home, and once home I top her off so crystals do not form in tank. On our maiden voyage, did get the low DEF warning and stopped at Walmart, picked up jug and put it in, then when at next stop topped of tank with another 2 jugs. Got home and kept tank filled. Realize, storage of DEF is also a consideration, over I think 85-90 degrees F, DEF has 6 months shelf life, below 60 F, DEF can last 18 months. For my piece of mind, keeping tank full at home and then topping off on return keep my stress level down. Air causes crystals to form, crystals are bad to have, enough and system might be plugged up period.

Chips, sort of know some about them, because used to own computer company and built custom PC's for clients, worked Client Support in Company with 3000 employees, so we saw or I experienced many, many iterations of chip development using Intel based products. Intel I know is making chips for the automotive industry, cell phones, and other consumer electronics outside of personal computers/servers. Big article on it back in December, about chip shortage, and how the "older chips" were what was driving the shortage. So here is how this works, a company will design a (example) "collision avoidance system" for a manufacturer(s), they will design this device around an existing CHIP, and they will not pay for the latest and greatest chip, because a top of the line server processor is way overkill for a simple CAS system. FWIW-Intel is still making and marketing the last iteration of the Pentium IV chip for the automotive industry, simply because that chip can and does do, all the things necessary for a car subsystem being installed. It takes many millions of dollars to build a chip FAB facility, it's not real cost effective to gut that facility out, and retool for a newer processor with a smaller die design, so they try to find markets for the chips in the old plant for as long as possible. For years, all Intel processors came from a FAB in the Philippines, going to assume that plant is still cranking them out. I know Taiwan, and many locations in SE Asia chips are manufactured. NOT all chips will work for DEF head issues, like I mentioned, the "parts and pieces" for the DEF head unit are designed around a specific chip, no substitute would fix issue, and so either wait for chip, or redesign new head unit, again, around an existing CHIP which will do the job. It's not only the Chip plant in Japan, more so in my opinion is the whole supply chain was just flat broken with COVID and all the lockdowns/shutdowns of whole states (unnecessary-shutdowns proven not to make any difference in infections), add to that the massive truck driver shortage, west coast ports closed for several months, and the workers kept from unloading the thousands of ships sitting in LA and SFO bays (among many west coast ports) for unloading. Now, containers are stuck all over USA, awaiting truck drivers to get them back to west coast ports, so can be loaded on ships, taken back to Asia, and reloaded. Again, truck driver shortage of at least 200,000 drivers. Whole fleets of trucks cannot move, no drivers to move them, fuel shortages, no tanker truck drivers to move fuel. That alone is a nation wide issue. Now you are truck driver, long hours, semi-crappy pay, and government pony's up with unemployment and then sweetens deal with another 300 a week, hmmm, I make more sitting on butt, than driving truck. Those drivers are taking the free money and sitting on their butt. Only when the government realizes, don't pay people to sit on butt, make them work, will all the jobs needing done will be filled. But, lots of problems with supply chain and those will exist for at least another 3-6-9 months, at a minimum. Now thank you Biden, for trying to stop fracking in Federal Lands and canceling the Keystone, since Canada said, that oil is going to be moved, we will use trucks and rail. Moving Oil, (either method) is a real high profit deal, much more so than moving a bunch or chips/crackers/stuff from a port on the west coast to anyplace. The oil is a pure almost 100 percent money maker, those truck are being re-tasked to move that oil.

Check your local grocery store, and take note of all the holes in the shelves for products which are not in stock, and in some cases, like chips, aint got clue on when in stock. Welcome to the new USA. Welcome to the new, i.e., still being worked out distribution model, where before it was almost 30 days inventory supply or less, now companies are placing orders for 90 days out or longer, increasing, the already limited truck delivery system. Tonight, on news, food prices going up, so food wholesalers are buying massive amounts of items before the price increase hits them, all those items will have to be stored and ultimately moved, yep you guess it, a limited amount of truck haul space, competing with everything else. The backlogs won't end soon, maybe by mid 2022. If you like a certain "thing" if it was me, keep extra supply someplace you can get to it, for me it's coffee, we have a 6 months supply, we open new can, a new one goes on the Costco list.

 

[J&JD]

Actually, I have under good authority that they (Cummins, Spartan and others) have and are working quite hard to solve this issue.

We’ll, I have an 8K mile trip planned starting next month. Hoping for the best. Hopefully Spartan will have spare before we have another DEF head failure. Better yet, hopefully we won’t have another failure.

8k! Are you taking the Mountain Aire to Hawaii??

 

[flyboy013]

8k! Are you taking the Mountain Aire to Hawaii??

MD -> CA -> WA -> MD -> FL.

 

[Old-RV'er]

Good luck on trip. WSJ Reported on food prices this am in article in NP. Want to go to NE to see leave change color, may still do it, if can talk BH into being gone that long.

 

[jagpot]

MD -> CA -> WA -> MD -> FL.

Prepare for 5.49 Diesel in CA. We are in CA headed for IN,IL ID CA on the 20th Safe travels.