DEF Head Failure

[Neal]

I'm going back to what I said before, self included - the result of this saga is DEF HYSTERIA.

We are not engineers, we are not chemists. People are putting heat shields in, analyzing DEF at various temps, taking temp readings, boxed vs. bulk DEF, using a small portion of your capacity before refilling, the list goes on. The system should work as installed at full capacity of the tank. There is one manufacturer that seems to have a problem with their code in a circuit board for sensing parameters or properly sending the params at the proper intervals. As a result the RV Diesel/DEF world is going crazy. I suggest we all just calm down and use the coaches as we have been for years and be prepared for any problem as we all have to be as these machines are not overly reliable like cars. Any and every part in our "machine" regardless of manufacturer of said part can fail or have a defect. It is what it is. Stats typically tell the real story of any trending failures.

The biggest lessons learned, IMHO, are to have towing service such as Coach-net, understand the limits and what costs could be, understand there are devices that help you should you be in a location without cellular such as a satellite communicator like the garmin inReach, use your DEF however you believe is best for you but be forewarned of said DEF HYSTERIA.

 

[turbopilot]

use your DEF however you believe is best for you but be forewarned of said DEF HYSTERIA.

As you know we are seeing the same thing in the aviation community. What we are dealing with is the helpless feeling of loss of control. The machines are getting so complicated we can't repair them when they break by ourself. Then you layer on the current situation of no spare parts available even for a professional repair and these very expensive toys become paper weights. In aviation community they become hangar queens. With that much money sitting idle people get goofy, me included.

 

[ARD]

For those with the refractometer---test with cold, and then heat and test again.

This could be done in your wifes favorite cooking pot while she is shopping for oreo's and ice cream.

You didn't...

 

[ARD]

With that much money sitting idle people get goofy, me included.

I feel really bad for the truckers. I don't know how some of them are surviving.

 

[Joe Hogan]

This DEF problem is not new and has spurred the resourceful truckers to create a subset of Class 8 tractors, Gliders. These are néw trucks that use rebuilt engines and drivetrains from pre-emissions year trucks.
This avoids having to install any DEF or other emission equipment. A very popular option for awhile until the Government limited the number of Gliders that can be sold.

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[Neal]

Anyone have stats, REAL NUMBERS on trucker issues? I don't see DEF going away, I think it has actually been effective for its purpose.

 

[turbopilot]

This DEF problem is not new and has spurred the resourceful truckers to create a subset of Class 8 tractors, Gliders. These are néw trucks that use rebuilt engines and drivetrains from pre-emissions year trucks.
This avoids having to install any DEF or other emission equipment. A very popular option for awhile until the Government limited the number of Gliders that can be sold.

Fitzgerald USA | Trucks, Trailers, Wreckers, and more!

Fitzgerald USA is your one stop truck shop! The Fitzgerald family provides the trucking community with trucks, trailers, wreckers, collision and repair services and more. Having been in the trucking industry for more than 30 years we have the experience and dedication to make sure all of our...

www.fitzgeraldgliderkits.com

During the early years of DEF and DPF in the Ford F550 the bigger problem involved the DPF. Have not seen that issue so far in these diesel pushers. In the F550 running at maximum weight the DPF would load up and not burn out completely limiting useful life to 35,000 to 50,000 miles. Talk about dealing with limp mode, nothing like a constipated DPF to give you a miserable experience with limp mode.

 

[TJ&LadyDi]

With the rapid growth (and improvement in technology) of electric vehicles, how long will it be before someone comes up with an EV conversion for motorhomes? No DEF worries there!

The University of Nevada-Reno already has an EV bus conversion on the road.

University of Nevada, Reno's 1996 APS Bus

Somebody’s going to make a bundle of bucks with this. Since I suggested it here, I’m expecting a cut of the action.

TJ

 

[jagpot]

For those with the refractometer---test with cold, and then heat and test again.

This could be done in your wifes favorite cooking pot while she is shopping for oreo's and ice cream.

I'm telling!!!!!!

 

[Old-RV'er]

OFF TOPIC - SORRY - Wow, just read an interesting article about EV Cars, Oregon, charges them an additional registration fee, since they don't fill up as it were. Plus, they are 1000 lbs. heaver than the comparable model powered by fossil fuel. Hence, the tires and brakes wear out quicker, and put more bad particulate material into atmosphere, which is a whole lot worse than the pollutants from a fossil fueled vehicle. There is still something bad in brake pad dust, that is in the air as we travel, keep cabin filters changed often.

Additionally, anyone may design, and build a EV Motorhome, all well and good for those who wants them. However, currently (and has been since I scheduled the Intertie over 37+ years ago), the electrical generation and electrical transmission capacity on the west coast, and also across this land, is woefully inadequate to power a fleet of EV's at a ratio of 25-40% saturation. Crap, CA cannot now nor when I scheduled the energy to ship down to them have enough capacity to power the then and now current electrical usage. Figure it out, EV's are never going to replace conventional powered vehicles, if they penetrate 1-2% of current use, I will be surprised. There will never be enough generation/transmission capacity to adequately power this nation because of two reasons: 1) Money talks and everything else walks; 2) NOT IN MY BACKYARD PERIOD. Today we see, community after community RAIL against a new high end RV park, if they don't want one of those, they sure as heck aint going to allow a 500 acre solar cell farm, or 400 windmills, or a 1000MW generation plant down the road. I rest my case, crap, knowing that the COVID vaccine will prevent, or at least mitigate the virus, our nation is only at 46% vaccinated currently. Give me a break. And Trust me, I love the freedom we have here, and no one is going to tell me what vehicle to buy, etc. Period.

 

[MemoriesByTheMile]

Market moving (or not) to electric vehicles — Wayyyy off topic - interesting but off topic. Would love to discuss this , but please start a new thread for it.

Now back to the DEF hysteria…

 

[Old-RV'er]

Yep, DEF hysteria. I think Neal hit the nail right on the head. And if I get it, way more unknowns than knowns. But the beauty of this forum, it the exchange of ideas, i.e., you know a little, I know a little, this couple over there knows a little. Between the "littles" we might be able to formulate a course of action. I think I heave learned a lot more about DEF and it's associated issues herein then I might have really wanted to know. They say knowledge is power, and in this case I think that is entirely a fact.

 

[Neal]

This situation is an interesting one. A select group has a problem. They make the entire diesel landscape think it's a problem affecting everyone. It is not. Panic ensues. There is some interesting psychology as to why some do this, intentionally or not. If you step back and look at the facts of this situation it's a very interesting scenario. Makes you want to hoard toilet paper or motorhome parts!

 

[Old-RV'er]

We are buying extra foods which will disappear because of heat/drought out west. But you are correct, most of us will not have issues period. And not sure it makes difference, but for most part, using system as designed, I am getting close to 10.0 MPG routinely. Better than last coach for sure.

 

[JRS]

My understanding is that DEF is just Urea (also used in agriculture as a nitrogen fertilizer) and distilled water.

Quote... "Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) is an emissions control liquid required by modern diesel engines. It is injected into the exhaust stream. DEF is never added to diesel fuel. It is a non-hazardous solution of 32.5% urea in 67.5% de-ionized water"

I wonder if you can just use a yardstick to mix up the DEF in the tank to re-dissolve any crystals?

 

[Old-RV'er]

Assuming you could figure out a way to stir the tank. I do not know if their is a "return line" if more is pumped into exhaust system or not. There was a cutaway posted someplace I will try to find it. Freightliner/Cummins does not seem to have the issue as do the spartan coaches, also think the systems are from different manufacturers. Again not sure.

 

[Old-RV'er]

Stranded motorhomes. Is Cummins to blame?

By Russ and Tiña De Maris Earlier this month we wrote about the plight of flocks of RVers, sidelined or scared-to-death by their Cummins-equipped motorhomes.

www.rvtravel.com

All excellent article about the DEF head failure. All should maybe read, it will at least open your eyes further. If you are experiencing the issue, please note the Cummins contacts at the end and maybe a "nice and polite" e-mail to one of them might spur them on to request the waiver. Then they are doing the "software upgrade" not you the customer, and the ball is in their court. Yeah, lots of shop time, but, then your warranty is not compromised regardless of what process is taken. Just food for thought. DEF head is part and parcel of the pollution equipment required on unit. That system and it's associated warranty is very much different than the base warranty, as I believe it's 10 years and 150,000 miles, but do not quote me. I would have to look in my book.

 

[Tooltime2]

As we await finalizing the purchase of our new to us 2018 Newmar Ventana, I am reading WAY to many forum threads and this DEF debate is consistently coming up. In my previous life I was an ASE Certified master automobile mechanic, now own a couple equipment rental stores and we do all of our own repairs. My question is, has anyone tried using something like this to get them back on the road when a debate hits? I will have access to a full suite of diagnostic tools with me that will come from my work previously, but this seems like cheap insurance to me unless I am missing something. OTR Reset Tool | Cummins

 

[svoshop]

As we await finalizing the purchase of our new to us 2018 Newmar Ventana, I am reading WAY to many forum threads and this DEF debate is consistently coming up. In my previous life I was an ASE Certified master automobile mechanic, now own a couple equipment rental stores and we do all of our own repairs. My question is, has anyone tried using something like this to get them back on the road when a debate hits? I will have access to a full suite of diagnostic tools with me that will come from my work previously, but this seems like cheap insurance to me unless I am missing something. OTR Reset Tool | Cummins

So, I went and bought a small scan tool also. Not the cheapest, but I did not get an OE Cummins tool. When my coach set DEF head codes, it would not clear them. My coach would "correct" itself and show DEF level correctly after a short period, so I never had a derate. I do not know if once the system shows a derate if you could clear some/all of the data and at least get the ability to drive doing a countdown again? Unsure of that answer. And my coach was lost in a fire, so I never got to look into it any further. My replacement coach has not broke yet

 

[Neemer]

As we await finalizing the purchase of our new to us 2018 Newmar Ventana, I am reading WAY to many forum threads and this DEF debate is consistently coming up. In my previous life I was an ASE Certified master automobile mechanic, now own a couple equipment rental stores and we do all of our own repairs. My question is, has anyone tried using something like this to get them back on the road when a debate hits? I will have access to a full suite of diagnostic tools with me that will come from my work previously, but this seems like cheap insurance to me unless I am missing something. OTR Reset Tool | Cummins

I don’t know if that will work or not, but I have never encountered a case of anyone being able to clear all the codes with scan tools available to the general public.

If you want cheap insurance, the DEF Sensor Simulator is your best bet IMO. I built one and I hope to never need it. DEF Sensor Simulator