DEF Head Failure

[turbopilot]

Spartan uses a DEF tank/head from Shaw Development. Freightliner uses a different DEF system and there hasn't been much information made available about it. I had read that it was a DEF system made available from their parent company (Daimler). It does appear accurate that Spartan has had many more failures than Freightliner.

There are various work around being discussed / developed, none to my knowledge by Spartan or Shaw.

Thanks. Just looked at the Shaw site. Definitely looks different than the system used on FreightLiners.

Diesel Exhaust Fluid System

GLOBAL DEF SYSTEM PORTFOLIO 833-742-9338 DIESEL EXHAUST FLUID SYSTEMS Shaw Development, LLC manufactures various configurations of Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF), also known as AdBlue® Reservoir Systems. DEF systems are used to supply Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) systems with a catalyst...

fluid-management.shawdev.com

 

[Neal]

This post post by @Neemer takes you to @Brett Davis's numbers on the problem based on @NIRVC data.

 

[redbaron]

Since 2012 I have had DEF on freightliner with a 450isl. I have never kept my def full on purpose, and routinely run it to the red light flashing. When filling it, often the def tank is empty. Never have had an error code, derate, or any other problem.

I have operated under the belief that a old def fluid is the worst thing to have. I try to store my tanks as close to empty as possible, and then add fresh def when needed at next fuel stop.

I have done the same with my chevrolet truck.

You will get a 250 mile warning on derate due to empty def. That's the refill counter I go off of.

 

[Neal]

Exactly my belief @redbaron hence this thread as well:

DEF life span and quality considerations

A lot of chatter on the web of late regarding DEF. While I don't know the details or causes I have a concern on DEF quality based on how many maintain DEF in their RV's. A lot of people like to keep their DEF tanks full, some may let it go down one indicator value such as 1 dot out of 4. Camp...

rvforums.com

Too much paranoia in running full all the time when in fact you could be doing more harm than good. My understanding with FL is you can drive 1,000 miles after DEF empty without a derate. Once you turn off the engine you're done. So if you go empty then next stop is a location with DEF for refill.

 

[turbopilot]

Since 2012 I have had DEF on freightliner with a 450isl. I have never kept my def full on purpose, and routinely run it to the red light flashing. When filling it, often the def tank is empty. Never have had an error code, derate, or any other problem.

I have operated under the belief that a old def fluid is the worst thing to have. I try to store my tanks as close to empty as possible, and then add fresh def when needed at next fuel stop.

I have done the same with my chevrolet truck.

You will get a 250 mile warning on derate due to empty def. That's the refill counter I go off of.

Well I know I am going to jinx myself but since my experience with the F550 I always run with the tank topped off. So far no DEF related problems. Sensor technology has changed since the early days of DEF. But this stuff sure likes to crystalize when exposed to air.

 

[turbopilot]

This post has posts by @Neemer taking you to @Brett Davis's numbers on the problem based on @NIRVC data.

That post tells the story. Sounds like Shaw has a problem.

 

[Neal]

That post tells the story. Sounds like Shaw has a problem.

Supposedly it's been a problem for a number of years, the overseas chip shortage caught up with them it seems now making it more visible due to the shortage and crisis.

 

[redbaron]

After the red def flashes, I don't turn off engine until filling. At that point it is 250 miles. Prior notices include def is low with amber solid def is empty with solid red. Those are safe to turn off and on. I have verified empty on gauge is empty on tank.

 

[turbopilot]

Supposedly it's been a problem for a number of years, the overseas chip shortage caught up with them it seems now making it more visible due to the shortage and crisis.

Interesting fact that the automotive chip shortage problem is almost exclusively limited to 40nm chips and larger. 40nm chips were state of the art 2007 and before. The problem is that nobody wants to invest in new capacity for 40nm chips. Interesting graphic from TMSC.

40nm Technology - Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company Limited

TSMC became the first foundry to mass produce a variety of products for multiple customers using its 40nm process technology in 2008. The 40nm process integrates 193nm immersion lithography technology and ultra-low-k connection material to increase chip performance, while simultaneously lowering...

www.tsmc.com

 

[NWIP]

I had interesting situation (warning) recently going from Southern California to Utah. After reaching the top of the long uphill grade out of Baker, with outside temperatures 108*, I got “low DEF concentration” message. Engine continued normally as I preceded to north Las Vegas for my planned fuel stop which was one exit north of NIRVC. Plan was fuel, top off DEF and call NIRVC or Spartan and ask if I should continue or get a diagnosis. I did not shutdown during fueling and added approximately 4gal of DEF.

Low and behold “low DEF concentration” warning went out. I decided there was no benefit looking for a diagnosis since I no longer had a fault. I have only traveled approx 200 miles with no faults. I am thinking that DEF fluid temperature may have something to due with the fault, adding fluid at the fuel stop may have reduced the fluid temp in the tank.

 

[Neal]

Entegra Coach® - Spartan RV Chassis

"We take pride in customer service" - except for the occasion we tell you break down, you pay $5K for your tow, if you survive the heat and not get killed on the side of the road or get your coach damaged from an improper tow, then call us for your reward - your DEF head replacement and a milkbone cookie.

 

[redbaron]

just wait until the Onan Generators are required to use DEF---then we will have lots of fun.

 

[Neal]

2017 Newmar Ventana with non DEF GEN on FL - $1,275,989 (HWH Active Air included at no extra charge)

 

[ARD]

Is it true most of these events are happening primarily on the Spartan chassis?

There are certainly a lot of Spartan cases; however, FL is not exempt. There are plenty of DEF header issues over there as well. Was just reading today that def headers are on backorder at FL.

Someone at the Entegra Forum at the other place wrote the attached PDF that summarizes the issues very well in my opinion with regards to the DEF head issues manufactured by Shaw Development.

 

[ARD]

just wait until the Onan Generators are required to use DEF---then we will have lots of fun.

Not sure if I should laugh or cry.